Vent and Request-- Good Frum Writers!

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jan 29 2010, 9:34 am

Sometimes I think the grammatical errors are more of a reflection on the poor editing around more than the poor writing...

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 29 2010, 10:31 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Sometimes I think the grammatical errors are more of a reflection on the poor editing around more than the poor writing...

Very true of some translations.

I have to say that while this is an interesting discussion, we all have such different views of what good is. Someone mentioned a cluster of I think Israeli writers. Not my cuppa. Too many internal monologues, too much navel gazing, and stuff that doesn't seem real to me, but I don't know the scene. Like the protagonist's friend who GASP works in an OFFICE and is slipping in madreiga (note the colorful clothes), and, what I really love, making scads of money. Do all secretaries in E"Y rake it in?

I hesitate to say this, I don't want to bash anyone. Some people just like genre writing. My cuppa tends towards mysteries (secular; I'll read the Judaica suspense/thrillers but they're not the same) though really good historical kosher fiction, like Dual Discovery or The Morning Star is breathtaking, and I have little interest in secular historical fiction; that poster likes her genre.

soulful music

Fri, Jan 29 2010, 2:41 pm

soulful music wrote:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Sender Zeyv. He writes very well, he wrote Aleph Shin, Ten Lost and Every Man a Slave.
I also like Hanoch Teller, Meir Uri Gottesman, Libby Lazewnick, Rachel Pomerantz.... and some others that I can't recall.

I'm curious did anybody read Sender Zeyv's books?
I guess I'm feeling invisible...... embarrassed

PinkFridge

Sat, Jan 30 2010, 9:35 pm

soulful music wrote:

I'm curious did anybody read Sender Zeyv's books?
I guess I'm feeling invisible...... embarrassed

I see you!
Every Man a Slave was fascinating. Again, good historical fiction. I haven't read Ten Lost, and Aleph Shin was a page turner but a little weird at the end.

soulful music

Sat, Jan 30 2010, 10:46 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

soulful music wrote:

I'm curious did anybody read Sender Zeyv's books?
I guess I'm feeling invisible...... embarrassed

I see you!
Every Man a Slave was fascinating. Again, good historical fiction. I haven't read Ten Lost, and Aleph Shin was a page turner but a little weird at the end.

Ten Lost is actually the prequel to Aleph Shin, I loved it!
Here's a review:
Reviews of Ten Lost

Book Review: THE JEWISH PRESS 8-1-08
Book Review of Ten Lost: The Prequel to Aleph Shin

by Sender Zeyv

The action of this novel, which I would characterize as a Jewish techno-thriller, precedes and explains the events in Aleph Shin, published with great success eight years ago. Aleph Shin’s success was based on several factors: it was written with talent, in a flowing, clear, intelligent style; it had a well constructed plot that captured the reader with an enjoyable sense of suspense; and it had a solid foundation in its thought in Torah. Mr. Zeyv based Aleph Shin on sources in Tanach and the rabbinic writings, of which he has a broad and deep knowledge, and constructed the action with a fine grasp of history, science, and technology as required by the nature of his plot line. To summarize a complex plot in one sentence, Aleph Shin concerned a near future war in Israel and the emergence of a new leader of the Jewish people.

Ten Lost takes up the plot in the years well before the action of Aleph Shin and fills us in on how the action and events of that book were set up. The title is a pun, simultaneously referring to the ten lost years of the protagonist’s life – lost to Torah learning while on a ten year odyssey – and of course also to the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, a subject taken up in fictional or speculative historical contexts many times before but never, in my opinion, with such thoughtfully integrated Torah basis combined with exciting writing.

At the novel’s start our protagonist, Menachem Shabazi at age 21, is met at his home in Sana, Yemen by Elkana, an emissary from a group of Levites exiled by the Babylonians. An expert in the repair and care of traditional musical instruments, initially he is given the charge of restoring an ancient kinnor, preserved by these Levites from the First Temple. Then, he accompanies Elkana on a journey, which provides him with skills, resources and knowledge.

In the course of his travels Menachem must find and gain clues from the hidden remnants of the Lost Tribes to pursue his mission. This section was, in my view, the very best part of the book. Mr. Zeyv has made the references, statements, and prophecies regarding the Ten Lost Tribes come to life in a strikingly vivid, realistic, coherent and believable way. The encounter of the warriors of the Bnei Dan with the Dalai Lama, in which an ancient relic vital to Menachem’s mission is transmitted, is especially well written and thought provoking.

As the tale continues, Menachem has several other adventures, all cleverly based on historical events. Also, in the course of these historical encounters, Mr. Zeyv is able to present a penetrating and thoughtful analysis of modern Israeli history. For this valuable commentary alone, Ten Lost would be more than worth reading.

This book is best enjoyed with Aleph Shin fresh in one’s mind, and I would recommend reading or rereading that first if one has not read it since it came out. Amazingly, TMS Publishing Company has included the entire second revised text of Aleph Shin in the same volume with Ten Lost, and at price of one hard-cover novel!

Ten Lost shares some of the qualities of Aleph Shin, specifically its well constructed and cleverly integrated plot, good writing, and remarkably scholarly foundation. It must be acknowledged, however, that it lacks Aleph Shin’s level of suspense and excitement – the very nature of it being a prequel seems to preclude that.

I found Ten Lost both an enjoyable read and highly thought provoking, a combination we find too rarely in a contemporary novel. My only criticism is the large number of fighting scenes; though integrated into the plot structure, they were not so much to my personal taste. That being said, I would consider this book very good value indeed to buy for oneself or as a gift. Many of us are very careful with our time in reading fiction, which is commendable. But Mr. Zeyv’s new book is more than a novel, and worth the time. I recommend it warmly.

Etan Savir The reviewer is a resident of Baltimore, received his A.B. summa come laude in Classics from Princeton University in 1983, his M.A. in Classics from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in 1986, and his M.A. in Mathematics from Sam Houston State University in Huntsville, Texas in 1994. He is Mathematics Department Chair at Garrison Forest School, a college preparatory school in Owings Mills, Maryland.

Isramom8

Sun, Jan 31 2010, 4:30 am

Just read Green Fences by Riva Pomerantz - it kept me rivited! She deals with dysfunction: obsessed friendship, marital strife, nosy kids, financial collapse that affects investors - surprising hot topics. I was astounded by her description of a Shabbos table where the family is fighting. Way to go in portraying reality! This story was serialized in Mishpacha, but I didn't see it. I really recommend it!

PinkFridge

Sun, Jan 31 2010, 9:17 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Didn't you feel like banging a few heads against the wall a few times? (Please don't think I ever actually do IRL .)
And how realistic is
- feeling pressured to buy a THREE HUNDRED FIFTY DOLLAR gift?
- that the husband, after TWELVE years in kollel, when they need the money NOW can take off another 3 years to go to law school?
- that no one tried to find this chashuve yungerman a shtellar or some other bekavodik position in klei kodesh first - it had to be either or?

sarahd

Sun, Jan 31 2010, 10:50 am

And that a woman who supported her husband for said TWELVE YEARS(!!) in kollel is a selfish materialistic shrew for finally wanting her husband to actually go out and support his family.

WriterMom

Sun, Jan 31 2010, 10:58 am

Isramom8 wrote:

OTOH, Rochelle Krich is actually an Orthodox mother. I knew one of her sons, a fine yeshiva bochur, he would come to us for Shabbos.Never read her books, though!

I like her books a lot. They're intelligent mysteries with good characterizations, but something I especially appreciate about them is that while they're mysteries about crimes, they aren't grisly. I get that in a mystery, you need usually a murder, but there are authors who focus on the gory details to an extent that it spoils my appreciation of the book. Rochelle Krich is very good at avoiding this. It's realistic, not all pastel-colored, but not gruesome, you know?

Isramom8 wrote:

Once again, let's keep in mind that any of these women could be an Imamother. Or someone could forward her a link to this discussion.

Pretty sure Anita Diamant isn't an Imamother! LOL

Isramom8

Sun, Jan 31 2010, 11:04 am

Batya was obsessed with Ruth. If Ruth spent $350, then Batya would feel pressured to. Ruth was the type to get annoyed with Batya if she wouldn't reciprocate on the same level.

3 years in law school would eventually lead to money, so it's realistic.

Their idea being long term kollel and his loving it and having just put out a sefer and working his way up in chashivus, it is realistically portrayed that he was dismayed at his wife's sudden turnaround and demand that he leave pronto. !2 years per se isn't the point!

MrsDuby

Mon, Feb 01 2010, 12:28 pm

I have a question -
are there jewish womens magazines out there ? - I know of Nishei Chabad newsletter and the Mishpacha magazine .. but are tehre others ?

in particular I am wondering if there is such a thing as a jewish bridal magazine ?

thanks !

bashinda

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 10:23 pm

louche wrote:

Raisin wrote:

How about Tova Mirvis? I don't know if she qualifies as a frum writer, but I think she is frum, and her books are about frum people.

I don't think she qualifies, as she writes for general audiences, not for frum people, whom she will offend. Her books are entertaining but I resent people who write for a secular audience and portray Jews in a negative way. It's one thing for us to laugh at ourselves and another for us to hold ourselves up to ridicule on the part of the world at large.

I just read this and I got this same vibe from both of her books. When I read Ruchama King's novel the feeling I had was she's writing for us and for other audiences; not only that she manages to write tsnius scenes that are romantic. That should be an oxymoron but somehow it isn't with her.

With Mirvis I feel like she's not with us, she's trying to show off to the Outside World (sorry, couldn't help it) and she also, for a frum writer, doesn't seem to understand a lot of the frum population. Nobody in her books seem realistic at all. The yeshivish people are cartoons and MO characters don't seem real to life either. Like in TOW, would a MO woman go to a non orthodox event? Wouldn't she just head over to that woman's learning center in Manhattan? I had similar problems with her first novel as well, besides for the very strange narration technique.

bashinda

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 10:28 pm

Be forwarned about Hearts of Gold. The publisher is also a bookshop. Twice characters talk about going to said bookshop. Sorry but that is just TACKY.

To the person who only reads Israeli novels in English translations, I do the opposite. I pretty much stay away from them. Everything seems extremely black and white and narrow to me. Go figure.

bashinda

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 10:40 pm

Okay so after being so NEGATIVE I'll try post about my issues with frum fiction.

First of all I think in newspapers and magazines the frum velt is a lot more open both with non fiction and fiction features. Somehow this doesn't necessarily translate as well in books.

My problem with a lot of books is not enough time spent with construction. A recent book I read for instance, was set in a particular time and yet it was extremely anachronistic, and reflected more our times than what was probably the norm back then.

Also another major problem is some authors never got the lesson "show don't tell." There's so many scenes that have excellent potential but it's such a disappointment when the writer doesn't seem to take the time to think about how to tell the story as much as what the story or the message is about. Yes, we're frum and we need to have a higher purpose to our fiction but can't that mean we can construct quality fiction at the same time?

There are mailos to frum fiction btw. I have tried to stay for the most part away from secular fiction and to ignore my taivos, but I read a recent secular novel (thinking it was frum but it wasn't really) and the quality wasn't that different from frum fiction only this author felt it was necessary to have intimate scenes. I felt grateful that there's no way that I would suddenly find myself in a character's bedroom in a frum novel and that's exactly how I like it. Even if I wanted to read good quality literature (and I really was into booker prize winners and other high level literature, btw so I'm not an easily satisfied reaader) I couldn't really because of language, and intimate scenes and that's not even talking about problems with hashkafa. So, although the quality is not how I would like it, barring a few fiction authors (like Etka Gittel Schwartz who really needs to have her work published in book form) there's not much else for me except for maybe very carefully chosen classics.

Mama Bear

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 11:04 pm

I love rochelle krich. She too writes for the secular audience not the frum audience, but her books are 'heimish' enough to be read by frum people. She isnt explicit but she does throw a ton of romance in - he rlatest book was about a guy and a frum girl having relations and of course she made sure the girl went to the mikvah first.... her books are kinda the tyype of books many of us would love to write and read, but cant get it published in the frum world...

leomom

Wed, Feb 10 2010, 11:41 pm

bashinda wrote:

Also another major problem is some authors never got the lesson "show don't tell." There's so many scenes that have excellent potential but it's such a disappointment when the writer doesn't seem to take the time to think about how to tell the story as much as what the story or the message is about.

RIGHT. This drives me crazy and I see it everywhere. In several books I've read recently, major plot events happen -- and they should have been fully dramatized with some juicy dialogue -- but the author dashes them off in one or two expository sentences. (Often, these events are also incredible coincidences that must happen in order for the story to work out.)

Many books do have potential, they just don't reach it. I just read "Family for a While" because people here recommended it and I had it lying around. The writing is fine (although I did find spelling errors). In many places it's really good writing! The early chapters set things up nicely. The protagonist has a clear goal (earn money to visit her brother) that carries through the story. But... the whole middle section about the missing $100 was too superficial, it heavily involved a side character that the reader only cares about a little, and it revolved around a series of amazing coincidences (everyone keeps sneaking into the school office at the same exact time, in the middle of the night). So the whole story just didn't really take off, although it started out with a lot of promise.

That's just one example, but it's fresh in my mind.

bashinda

Thu, Feb 11 2010, 9:11 am

I think we're on to something. I'm wondering how many drafts do these authors actually write. Maybe if they had more time to edit and re-write and re-write and get people to read the books that in itself would improve things.

Compare that to secular novelists. My guess is unless they're the type that write boilertype bestsellers, they're doing a lot of re-writes for their novels.

Ruchel

Thu, Feb 11 2010, 9:40 am

Once upon a time it was the Jewish kid who won the spelling contests... times have changes, and not in good.

Sherri

Wed, Mar 17 2010, 1:05 am

louche wrote:

Raisin wrote:

How about Tova Mirvis? I don't know if she qualifies as a frum writer, but I think she is frum, and her books are about frum people.

I found her book at the library, The Ladies Auxiliary and actually enjoyed it very much. I had remembered your comment and tried to keep a critical eye out for any ridiculing... I didn't think it had any making fun, did I miss the boat?

zigi

Fri, Mar 26 2010, 10:00 am

soulful music wrote:

I'm curious did anybody read Sender Zeyv's books?
I guess I'm feeling invisible...... embarrassed

I liked every man a slave. it was well written interesting and always some action to keep things going.

I like leah fried she wrote tight rope about getting in long with a mother in law. and can I call you ima. she also wrote a book about a family that is divorced.