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ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:00 am

Quote:

Gloating would be childish then

Penina, the example I brough was just an example, & I made it ridiculus so that people will realize its just an example (do you really think there is a couple with such drastic difference int he worldview???)

Quote:

One doesn't change political views just to indulge someone else.....

this is not what I said. I said that if something affects both of you, you both have the right to participate in the desicion. What YOU feel is right for your family IS YOUR CHOICE.
(Also, modern politics are a topic for a separate discussion. )

Quote:

Really don't get the point about women not allowed to vote.

Vote as in "express her opinion" or vote as in "go to the voting booth"?

the second one I can't care less about. The first one, I agree (as I think most of women her from what I saw posted so far:

One vote per household, regardless of it's composition!!!

Pearl

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:03 am

"Vote as in "express her opinion" or vote as in "go to the voting booth"? "

Both. I think voting is a democratic and fundamental right, as silly as that may sound in this thread.

"One vote per household, regardless of it's composition!!! "
I agree with this, it's relevant to the thread Smile

and I do think that that's the way it should be...

Tefila

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:10 am

Quote:

"One vote per household, regardless of it's composition!!!

Pnina youv'e got a point Very Happy

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:10 am

oh, I am glad we cleared up the misunderstanding here!!

Pearl

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:28 am

Me too!!!

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 4:52 pm

I do not agree that each household should only be entitled to one vote- In my opinion a husband and wife can feel differently about political and other matters and it does not need to compromise their relationship.

That is all irrelevant. Even if we agree that one vote per household is sufficient, still you have the question of why women can not represent their household. Tznius concerns are questionable. In Crown Heights people do not walk on separate sides of the street, men and women shop in grocery stores at the same time and may even say "excuse me" if they bump into each other. How would this be different at a polling place ? Why would men and women be allowed to vote in secular elections at the same time ?
Someone wrote that it may be because women are busier. Not necessarily- a husband who works two jobs may have less time than his stay at home wife with one baby.

Motek, pointing out that halacha says women can't vote, end of story, makes for a very, very short discussion. It limits what we can learn from each other and it is an effective way to shut down other viewpoints. Also, I am still not sure of your sources on that. Please quote them.

Likewise with that post about the synagogue where women pay 10,000 and then have no say in who the rabbi is and must try to find a man to speak for them. I need a little more explanation on that. Why would a woman continue belonging to such a congregation ? Either go to one that is cheaper ( or free) or find one that will take your vote or both. Enlighten me.

Tefila

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 5:00 pm

Quote:

Motek, pointing out that halacha says women can't vote, end of story, makes for a very, very short discussion.

Whats there more to discuss if thats true. Confused

Speak to the Rabbonim and maybe mp they can make the discussion open for debate.... Hatzlacha Smile

zuncompany

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 5:32 pm

maybe a source?

MP... does it really effect you? Do you really care what the outcome is?

sara

sarahd

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 5:33 pm

mp wrote:

Likewise with that post about the synagogue where women pay 10,000 and then have no say in who the rabbi is and must try to find a man to speak for them. I need a little more explanation on that. Why would a woman continue belonging to such a congregation ? Either go to one that is cheaper ( or free) or find one that will take your vote or both. Enlighten me.

You must realize that in this city there are three kehillos (not shul "congregations", but communities) and everyone belongs to one of them. They are all empowered by law to charge a religion tax based on your income, so there aren't any "free" kehillos and there aren't any cheaper ones. If you leave the kehilla, you're poresh min hatzibur. Probably after 120, you will not have anyplace to be buried. Really. (This woman says she knows that if she leaves the kehillah, they'll take the money from her children after she dies.)

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 5:44 pm

Quote:

still you have the question of why women can not represent their household.

ask those who organized the elections, not us.

Pearl

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 2:49 am

I live in Europe too, and here as well it's contribution per income, and the only way to receive proper burial after 120 yrs.
And here too, not much choice in kehillot....lots of people actually become member to one not because they are religiously affiliated, but to assure themselves of proper burial...
It does seem very silly though that single women (no matter why they are in their single situation) have no saying in important issues, like who is your spiritual leader?!

sarahd

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 4:06 am

Yes, especially because these women often are the ones who need the help and support of the Rov more than most men in the kehillah....

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 8:02 pm

That is very sad about kehillos in Europe. If I was in that situation, I would join only when I was sick or towards the end of my life. I can't imagine paying all that money and not having a say.

I don't remember who asked this, but no, I have no personal interest in voting in Crown Heights. I just happened to be looking at their website for something else and noticed their voting rules. I didn't understand them and wanted to figure out if women not voting was done in other places also or if it was just a leftover thing from the olden days or if it was a halacha thing or what.

sarahd

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 4:27 am

mp - great idea about joining the kehilla at the end of your life....if they agree to accept you Confused

which is unlikely, since they are as smart as you in this matter, and are not obligated to accept all applicants.

Tefila

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 1:49 pm

Quote:

If I was in that situation, I would join only when I was sick or towards the end of my life

.

You know when that will be?. Most don't, what we hope for and what Hashem plans are two diff things... Sometimes you know Wink

happyduck

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 5:28 pm

I am still wondering where it says in halacha that owmen can not vote... end of story. I would like a source please as I jsut asked our Rav and he had not heard of it either.

Motek

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 6:43 pm

Quote:

wanted to figure out if women not voting was done in other places also or if it was just a leftover thing from the olden days or if it was a halacha thing or what.

mp: if this matter is really of deep concern to you, then the obvious thing to do is to call the rabbonim in Crown Heights and ask them

there's a teshuva from R' Yosef Engel who quotes a Maharsha that says for kahalishe (community) matters only bnei torah should vote and amei ha'aretz cannot vote.

perhaps this is the reason

if you truly care to know, you will ask those who can answer you, I.e. rabbonim

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 7:27 pm

I am considering call CHJCC, but I don't know how to ask this and not be offensive. Any suggestions ?

Also, your quote seems to imply that women are amei hooretz. Is that what you meant to say ?

gryp

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 8:40 pm

why cant you just ask: "is there a reason women werent voting last sunday?"

in regards to whether or not women are amei haaretz, how many women are more learned than thier husbands for starters...?

yehudis

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 8:41 pm

RG wrote:

in regards to whether or not women are amei haaretz, how many women are more learned than thier husbands for starters...?

I don't know about husbands, but I would think Motek is more learned than some men Smile

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