Chazal, Science, Controversy ... - Slifkin

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 11:26 am

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directly impacts on the foundational mitzva of Shabbos

As of Yetzias mizraim, TIME has no jurisdicyion over the Jews. H' gave us the power & responcibility to determain time, not vise versa (Rosh Hodesh)

And if you ever have a chance, pls go to New Square for YomTov. You will see that from candle lighting untill Havdalah, the TIME, as we know & understand it, seases to exist. There is no time, there is Yom Tov!!

It's all relative.

The 25th of Elul date is relative and doean't contradict the possibility that the day was longer or shorter.

Even today, when calculating zeman tefila, we take HALACHIK HOUR, not actual 60 min. hr ratio. The actual length of halachic hour varies every day. Here is the relativity to you!!!

The TIME itself is also a creation of H'. I do not know WHEN H' created it, but it was irrelevant anyways untill the sun & the moon were around to mark it.

so you will now ask me what about Shabbos & 7 days of creation?
well, whatever H' calls a day, was not nessecerity the day as we know it.
Just like H' doesn't have hands, but is described using them, as I wrote ^.

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another point:
we cannot manipulate TIME but H' can (& did so several times)
To manipulate something, one has to be above it.

We live in a 4-dimentional world: 3 dimentions + time. We can manipulate the lower 3 dimentions - the shapes, but not the 4th - the Time. H', who is beyond & above the time can manipulate it. He can stretch & shorten the days & the hours.
There is no contradiction to the Torah in this. It was 7 days.
It's just that we have no clue as to what those days were like

Motek

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 12:23 pm

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H' gave us the power & responcibility to determain time, not vise versa (Rosh Hodesh)

that is correct for beis din determining the new month, and the holidays

it is not correct for Shabbos, because Shabbos is when it is, regardless as to whether humans observe it or not

time is definitely not relative, it is very specific in halacha

those who extend Shabbos and Yom Tov are doing so because halacha allows for it

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The 25th of Elul date is relative

meaning?

generally, a specific date is just that

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and doean't contradict the possibility that the day was longer or shorter.

a day, by definition, is a 24 hour period

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Even today, when calculating zeman tefila, we take HALACHIK HOUR, not actual 60 min. hr ratio. The actual length of halachic hour varies every day. Here is the relativity to you!!!

although it is not a 60 min. hour, this halachic hour is determined based on a 24 hour day

the way it is calculated is by dividing the period of time from sunrise to sunset by twelve, very specific and done the same way each time, though of course the length of the halachic hour varies

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well, whatever H' calls a day, was not nessecerity the day as we know it.

yet Torah scholars say that it is

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we have no clue as to what those days were like

in length of time? we do, our Torah scholars tell us

as for contemporary rabbis and their cherem - the issue is not one of my opinion versus your opinion

this was not a personal attack or "jumping" but an issue of standing up for kavod ha'Torah

the point is who are you talking about, how are you qualified to say what you say, and on what basis are you denigrating their position that these books contain heresy

yehudis

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 12:33 pm

Motek, if this is as clear-cut as you make it seem, why hasn't anyone banned the other books on the subject? And what about all those kiruv people who tell people that each day of Creation lasted billions of years? (I guess I shouldn't name names, or they would be considered heretics. But I've heard this from very famous kiruv people.)

And I don't see what this has to do with determining when to observe Shabbos. By the seventh day, everything was formed, so what is the problem with calculating 7 days from the first Shabbos, and then 7 days from the 2nd Shabbos, etc.

Motek

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 1:08 pm

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why hasn't anyone banned the other books on the subject? And what about all those kiruv people who tell people that each day of Creation lasted billions of years? (I guess I shouldn't name names, or they would be considered heretics. But I've heard this from very famous kiruv people.)

Aish has pulled an article off their website by one of those other scientists, "for review"

I once wrote to Aish's website, protesting an article that contained similarly objectionable material

this is a common pitfall - trying to adjust Torah to science, ostensibly for kiruv purposes

my guess as to why the other books weren't banned is that slifkin's articles have been printed in yeshivish publications and his books have been published by what is considered yeshivish publishers. Furthermore, he is described as yeshivish.

the other authors are from other walks of life

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And I don't see what this has to do with determining when to observe Shabbos. By the seventh day, everything was formed, so what is the problem with calculating 7 days from the first Shabbos, and then 7 days from the 2nd Shabbos, etc.

because when we observe Shabbos, we are testifying (as we say in Kiddush) that Hashem created the world in six days and rested on the seventh

we say in kiddush that Shabbos is "zikaron l'maasei bereishis" - a reminder of creation

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 1:51 pm

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yet Torah scholars say that it is

SOME SAY SO, AND SOME DON'T

Unless you bring me a source that states that time, as we know it, was created b4 the creation had began, I stick with the chachamim who say that day b4 creation was complete is like the hand of H'

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the other authors are from other walks of life

so as long as they don't claim to be frum, and use non-Jewish publishers, we can read their books? Any logic in this position?

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we say in kiddush that Shabbos is "zikaron l'maasei bereishis" - a reminder of creation

this does not contradict what I wrote above.
H' had extended day a few times, and it is written openly in TaNaCh. so why would it be wrong to guess that H' could have had different days @ the time of creation?

yehudis

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:14 pm

How about this: each day of Creation was 24 hours long. The length of the hours was determined by the length of the day (or the respective day and night). Therefore, each daytime hour was 1/12 of the length of the day and each nighttime hour was 1/12 of the length of the night. And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

And if you hold otherwise, you still haven't answered my question about how you actually measure the length of the days before the sun was created.

rydys

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:29 pm

Keep in mind that time is relative. For example, if you have identical twins and one day one of them gets on a spacecraft and goes to venus at the speed of light and returns, the one who traveled will have aged only a few days, while the one who stayed on earth will have aged many years. Time can actually be measured as flowing differently at the top and bottom of a mountain with very sensitive equipment.

Even within halacha we don't have a concept of an hour being an absolute length of time. In halacha we have shaos zemanios which differ in length by day and night and by season.

Motek

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:43 pm

sarahd wrote:

why did you start this thread?

a) it's a topic that interests me
b) I had extensive, I mean EXTENSIVE email correspondence with Slifkin a year and a half ago on the very issues for which he was banned
c) a ban is a major event, definitely thread-worthy
d) wondering whether anybody else was interested

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SOME SAY SO, AND SOME DON'T

what was the prevalent, pervasive Torah view before science came up with the millions of yrs. theory?

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Unless you bring me a source that states that time, as we know it, was created b4 the creation had began, I stick with the chachamim who say that day b4 creation was complete is like the hand of H'

no idea what this means
I have no reason to bring such a source as I made no such claim.

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so as long as they don't claim to be frum, and use non-Jewish publishers, we can read their books? Any logic in this position?

any logic to the question? who said those books could be read?

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H' had extended day a few times

which means?

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and it is written openly in TaNaCh.

where?

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so why would it be wrong to guess that H' could have had different days @ the time of creation?

what purpose is there in this guess? what do you accomplish thereby?

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And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

sounds fine to me Smile

yehudis

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:52 pm

Motek wrote:

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And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

sounds fine to me Smile

If you agree with this, then how can you call it heresy when someone says that those days lasted millions of years? You just agreed that we have no idea how long they actually lasted.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:54 pm

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any logic to the question? who said those books could be read?

those who banned only some books on the issue but not the others

[quote]fy:so why would it be wrong to guess that H' could have had different days @ the time of creation?
motek:
what purpose is there in this guess? what do you accomplish thereby?[/
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I render this argument useless

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where?

to fill the water tanks b4 sunset,
to finish a war in day light
(sorry, cant bring exact sources)

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no idea what this means
I have no reason to bring such a source as I made no such claim.

you said day was a day, but there was no way to measure time b4 the sun was created.
If you claim that day b4 creation is same as we know it now, than you imply that Time was created at the beg of crreation. I'm asking if you know who sais so.

actually, Yehudis explained it well:

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each day of Creation was 24 hours long. The length of the hours was determined by the length of the day (or the respective day and night). Therefore, each daytime hour was 1/12 of the length of the day and each nighttime hour was 1/12 of the length of the night. And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

And if you hold otherwise, you still haven't answered my question about how you actually measure the length of the days before the sun was created.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 7:06 pm

yehudis wrote:

Motek wrote:

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And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

sounds fine to me Smile

If you agree with this, then how can you call it heresy when someone says that those days lasted millions of years? You just agreed that we have no idea how long they actually lasted.

hmmm good question.........

Motek

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 7:13 pm

what I agreed to was- you started off by saying -

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each day of Creation was 24 hours long.

so I don't understand your comment

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You just agreed that we have no idea how long they actually lasted.

I just agreed to what?! see above (where you said 24 hours!)

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those who banned only some books on the issue but not the others

there are numerous books written by observant Jews that these same rabbis would object to

I explained in an earlier post, why I think they banned the books by this particular author

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to fill the water tanks b4 sunset,
to finish a war in day light

as, I see what you mean now!

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you said day was a day

actually, the Torah says, "it was evening it was morning, one day" and so on

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 8:47 pm

but the Torah also sais that H' has a hand, and that H' talks, etc.

do we take those literally? NO!!

Same here

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so I don't understand your comment

YOU selected the following paragraph:

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And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

and under it you wrote:

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sounds fine to me

which implies that you agree that we do not know what days and nights were like b4 the creation was completed.

Anny

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 11:28 am

I do not have time to read everything on that page you sent us to, but this is what I think:

I do not see any problem in science being in sinc withthe Torah -
nature is the vail behind which Hashem hides Himself.

Scince is one of His creations, it's a part of this world it's a study of the functioning of teh world. I think it is beautiful.
This world is built on logic and pure math - and I love it (I do happen to like math too, so probably it helps LOL)

It would probably seem wrong to use science to prove that the Torah is tru, because Hashem and Torah do not need to be proven (and we should believe in them even if no proves are available)

However, it is beautiful to see how the science confirms, fact after fact, that there is one creator who, in his infinite wisdom, created this perfect world!

And seing how complex it is, we appreciate it even more!

Motek

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 4:31 pm

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do we take those literally? NO!!

Same here

do you have a source to equate the two? if so, please quote it or I'll assume this is your personal opinion

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which implies that you agree that we do not know what days and nights were like b4 the creation was completed

what I know is what yehudis wrote, and we both agree she wrote it well, that creation days were 24 hours

here's my question for FY and yehudis - why is it important to you to see the world as having been around for millions of years?

and a question to whoever may know the answer: someone who knows Danny Mechanic told me that D.M. used to explain how millions of years is compatible with Torah (for Aish's Discovery), and that Rabbi Avigdor Miller z'l got him to stop saying that years ago. My question is - do teachers for Aish-Discovery still try to explain how millions of years are compatible with Torah?