The Yetzer Hara of Our Generation is ...

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Crayon210

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 1:40 pm

Basically, my point is like this. People can spend YEARS in school...getting a BA, then an MA, then a PhD...and all this is supposed to guarantee them happiness and parnasa...and then so many people find themselves without a job (and with lots of debt Confused

), when there are many other people who are happy in whatever job Hashem gave them to make money.

I'm not advocating ignorance, but I'm also VERY against this institution of "everyone needs to get a higher and higher and higher education", because a) according to many it's not appropriate to get that sort of secular education, and b) it's no guarantee for anything. I also don't think it "counts" necessarily as hishtadlus (especially when you forget Hashem Confused

), because there are many ways to do hishtadlus without going to school. The only guarantee is Hashem, and in a generation where lots of people are running running for degrees and diplomas, in my opinion, education HAS become a yetzer hara/avoda zara.

mimsy7420

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:01 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

I also don't think it "counts" necessarily as hishtadlus (especially when you forget Hashem Confused

There are certain people who "forget" Hashem no matter what they are doing - it could be they are getting an education - or it could be during their business practises. If they are going to attribute it to Hashem they are going to attribute it to Hashem. People who get an education don't attribute their success to Hashem "less" then people with successful businesses. I think it depends on the person, not what they are doing. I'm sure there are people who are in business who don't attribute everything to Hashem -and I'm sure there are people who think that an education garauntees them a good job. I know when I was taking exams in University - you can be sure the morning of a hard exam my davening was a little more intense. And there are probably who do the same on the day of a big business meeting.

I don't know what world you live in that you think education doesn't "count" as hishtadlus. The more degrees you have the more you get paid. That's the way the world works plain and simple. Of course that doesn't mean that someone in business who never went to college won't make money.

The point is education isn't the ONLY hishtadlus you can do- but it's a pretty good one, and its surer then no education at all. And that's all education is - hishtadlus - the rest is up to Hashem.

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:03 pm

only1 wrote:

The more degrees you have the more you get paid. That's the way the world works plain and simple.

This is exactly what I'm referring to.

happymom

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:04 pm

I dont think its that ppl are too busy although many ppl are, I think its loshon harah, chutzpa. and tznius

mimsy7420

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:09 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

only1 wrote:

The more degrees you have the more you get paid. That's the way the world works plain and simple.

This is exactly what I'm referring to.

So it's money then.
Some people will try to make as much money as they can - it could be from getting degrees or it could be from business. It's the same Yetzer Hara.

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:14 pm

No, it's not money.

It's the idea that "more degrees=more money".

Hashem determines how much money.

In some cases He clothes that through degrees.

In MANY cases He does not.

mimsy7420

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:41 pm

Quote:

It's the idea that "more degrees=more money".

But it's true. Are you even in the working world?
Even teachers in BY schools get paid more money based on how many degrees they have.

Quote:

Hashem determines how much money.

And that's true also.
They two don't work against each other.
If one thinks that all his hard earned money is because of the degrees he got then hes wrong. The degrees are just the hishtadlus. Hashem determines the rest. There's nothing wrong with doing all the hishtadlus in your power. It's better then sitting on your couch and doing nothing.

And everyones hishtadlus is different for where they are in life. For one his hishtadlus would be to go to get a degree - the other might be to go work in his uncles business, the other it might be a rebbe in cheder. You can't say that one of those choices are on a lower level. You can't say that one doesn't "count" as hishtadlus.

Having many degrees doesnt determine that you will be rich - when you are offered a job you will get a higher salary because of the degrees. But WHO do you think put the job offer in your lap?

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:45 pm

Please don't make accusations about my knowledge of the "working world".

I think there's a disconnect going on here because some hold that college is assur, so it's not considered hishtadlus to get a degree, etc.

This thread is not about college, though, so let's continue this in a different thread if so desired.

:-D

downsyndrome

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:48 pm

I fall back on Motek's initial 'diagnosis' - the shortage of time. That is certainly a factor in my life and in the lives of everybody around me. It is NOT a selfish busy-ness; it is a stressful one - one where you can say there is no bracha in our time. We do and we do and we do and we do and yet we always feel that the lists of need-to-do's (and I'm not talking petty stuff here) is never-ending. We are a generation that is always running, rushing, panting, and never quite 'catching up'.

mimsy7420

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 2:54 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Please don't make accusations about my knowledge of the "working world".

I didn't make an accusation I was just asking a question. If you have had the same job for the last 20 years then you might not know what you are talking about, and how it works these days.

Quote:

I think there's a disconnect going on here because some hold that college is assur, so it's not considered hishtadlus to get a degree, etc.

If you think college is assur - thats fine. If you don't want to get a degree - then thats great also.

But many people think its important that you go to college and that's who we are talking about here. So the people who think that college is assur and not hishtadlus are irrelevent in the discussion, because we are talking about people who do go to college. If that is not you, then you don't really need to make comments about what you think other people are doing wrong.

roza

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 3:03 pm

these issues are discussed with mashpiim and personal rabonim. it's not black and white.

mimsy7420

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 3:04 pm

roza wrote:

these issues are discussed with mashpiim and personal rabonim. it's not black and white.

yup

Crayon210

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 3:04 pm

Who said anything was black and white?

imaamy

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 7:20 pm

Rudeness (lack of consideration or concern for others)?

Tefila

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 7:25 pm

Quote:

Rudeness

Neh thats not new for this generation, but goess wwaaaay back in timmmmme Tongue Out

MommyLuv

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 8:37 pm

I would have to say that I think the yetzer hara of this age is the holy dollar bill...

Excess materialism, needless spending, luxurious living standards and expectations, overly lavish Bar Mitzvas and weddings, the focus on materialistic comfort, the peer pressure of keeping up with the Steins...and the list goes on..

queen

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 8:45 pm

Tefila wrote:

Quote:

Rudeness

Neh thats not new for this generation, but goess wwaaaay back in timmmmme Tongue Out

don't date yourself tefillah!!!! Very Happy

Tefila

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 9:05 pm

Quote:

don't date yourself tefillah!!!!

Why Queen u remember those bygone days too Twisted Evil

imaamy

Mon, Jun 19 2006, 10:29 pm

Tefila, guess rudeness has been around, but lately it just seems everywhere around me. We have new neighbors who like to party into the early morning....those kinds of things just show that people aren't taught or don't care about bothering others. It is all about them.

Motek

Tue, Jun 20 2006, 4:16 pm

Okay, drumroll ... my opinion

(because "being too busy" wasn't my opinion but what I read)

My line of thinking goes like this. What's a generation? About 25-30 years. So I reframed the question as follows: what is the specific yetzer hara that epitomizes the years betweeen 1975-2006?

Before thinking much about it, I also thought that the pursuit of money was the answer but upon further reflection I thought - that was the yetzer hara of the early half of the 20th century and it isn't specific to our generation.

So what I came up with is:

1) moral relativism - the new way of thinking which says "you have your truth, I have mine, and no one can say which is better or more true" and so "judging" has become a major crime.

2) the focus on self - this includes the new phenomenon of the Self-Help genre with all its offshoots; therapy as a way of life where you are able (and encouraged) to pay someone to listen to you talk about yourself, your feelings, all about self; the rise of self-indulgent behaviors and the epidemic of addictions (drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc.) and eating disorders

Then I thought of one more thing that is specific to our generation, and that is the rise of feminism. But I don't know that that fits into a "yetzer hara" category.

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