Names with Ashkenazi Pronunciation in Israel

suomynona

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 4:48 am

I personally would try to avoid such names, not so much because of the Israeli school system, but because I feel like I'm making too much of a statement about who we are by how we pronounce the name, and I'm not comfortable being boxed into either category since I consider myself in between. For example, I would avoid the name Rochel/Rachel.
My kids names all sound slightly different when pronouced by Israelis, but not enough to make a significant difference. Ex. my son's name is YItzchak, so not only is it a kametz issue, but also the Israeli pronounciation puts the stress on the last syllable. So my son thinks the way his teachers pronounce it is his name in Hebrew and the way we pronounce it is his name in English.

RachelEve14

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 7:45 am

amother wrote:

My six year old tells me. The way I pronounce/say his name is his 'American Name'. The way his friends and teachers pronounce it, is his 'Hebrew Name'. His name is Meir. I thought that was cute.

When Rena was about 3 she asked me to write her name. After I wrote it, she said "Ima, it says Rena or Rrrrena" She was asking if I had written it in Hebrew or English lol. Even though we pronouce it basically the same way, in her mind it was still 2 different names. I just don't have the "reish" sound down that well so it sounds the same when I say it.

chaylizi

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 9:14 am

Mommy3.5 wrote:

amother wrote:

We are in Israel and Chareidi and Ashkenazi and send to English speaking gans where their names are pronounced however we present them. Our kids will go to hebrew speaking schools from around age 4. If we name our next child with a name that sounds different in modern Hebrew pronunciation than in traditional ashkenazi - e.g. Elazar or Basya or Elchonon, and if we use the ashkenazi pronunciation, what will happen when they get to Cheder or BY? Will the name be pronounced as we pronounce it? Will Israeli's think it sounds strange? Is it different for different names or for boys and girls? My DH would never use modern pronunciation. Basya would be Basya, for example. No question in his mind. I am just wondering what the consequences are if we choose names like that.

No offense, but Batya is actually more biblically correct pronunciation. Basya is a modern invention of Ashkenazim that have bastardized the hebrew language. Twisted Evil

That is kind of an interesting POV, considering that every shevet had their own pronunciation of lashon hakodesh.

Mommy3.5

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 10:21 am

chaylizi wrote:

Mommy3.5 wrote:

amother wrote:

No offense, but Batya is actually more biblically correct pronunciation. Basya is a modern invention of Ashkenazim that have bastardized the hebrew language. Twisted Evil

That is kind of an interesting POV, considering that every shevet had their own pronunciation of lashon hakodesh.

I was half joking, although I see it was lost on many here....

I have heard it said many times by Ashkenaz and chassidish Rabbonim, that the Sefardi pronunciation is likely closest to the original biblical pronunciation. If you learn to read the sefardic way there are many more nuances and things that ashkenazim ignore when teaching reading actually matter in the sefardic tradition.

I personally learned to read in the ashkenazic ways, but have learned the sefardic way with my kids, and I can tell you, that it makes a lot more sense. Like chatafs, making a different sound then a plain kamatz, patach and segol. Using taamim to determine the sound of the shva, differentiating between a kamatz gadol and katan. Milel and Milrah determining pronunciation.

Secondly, While its true that shevatim had different minhagim, In galut we are really only 2.5 tribes, and likely most of us had similar minhagim to start with, but being scattered through the world vastly changed Minhagim, traditions and language. Many say that sefardim are more authentic in their traditions, as there is no basis for many things done to day, more then 3-500 years ago. Its all pretty new, but you can find many sefardic traditions deeply rooted farther back.

amother

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 10:42 am

Mommy3.5 wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Mommy3.5 wrote:

amother wrote:

No offense, but Batya is actually more biblically correct pronunciation. Basya is a modern invention of Ashkenazim that have bastardized the hebrew language. Twisted Evil

That is kind of an interesting POV, considering that every shevet had their own pronunciation of lashon hakodesh.

OP here. Wow. This is a tangential and major debate that you could be opening up, since you are almost suggesting that ashkenazi traditions lack authenticity, which is a sweeping statement to which many would object vehemently!!! I thought you meant to say something along the lines that according to ashkenazi pronunciation rules, Basya should actually be pronounced Batya. If you're not saying that, then I think I'll safely "forget" that you mentioned it.

Go and get into the boxing ring with Rav Yaakov Emden, if you want.

Mommy3.5

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 11:48 am

Actually, you would be surprised what many say, while at the same time defending the way the current pronunciation staying the way it is. I am no way suggesting a radical view, Just one I have heard from many ashkenazim. I didn't say anything "lacked authenticity" I do not think people should change their minhagim based on what I have said. I am just giving a historical perspective.

All of us know that , that having one wife, not eating kitniyot, hard matzot, and many other minhagim are more recent inventions, that's not an argument. As are some of the current pronunciations of tenuot (nekudot), which are also a modern invention.

Tenout were developed to help people learn to read and were not used until a few hundred years ago. The fact that we use them at all is a modern (relatively) invention.

amother

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 12:39 pm

chaylizi wrote:

I don't know too many chassidish rabbonim who think that, but okay...

Especially since there is such a mesorah for modern ivrit... "HaRav" Ben Yehuda really cared about authentic tradition.

Much as I am uncomfortable with the assertion that sefardic tradition is more authentic than ashkenazic (as I would be with the opposite assertion also), I think there is a distinction to be made between sefardic tradition and Ben Yehud-eze. But I, as the OP, was not even expecting to be discussing the sefardic tradition in the first place - I thought that the issue would be between Ben Yehud-eze and ashkenazi pronunciation.

EvenI

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 12:52 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

I find this distasteful. I must object that relative recentness in certain inventions does not detract even remotely from the authenticity of a tradition. The idea that there is a superiority to sefardic tradition even if it's true that it happens to be closer to the original minhag (not saying it is) is absurd if both traditions are true to masora. Masora certainly allows for changes in customs as long as they are introduced in the authentic fashion. You are introducing a value that the chachomim themselves have not placed above all else. You are also making implications about nekudos that are misleading.

chaylizi

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 12:55 pm

amother wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Especially since there is such a mesorah for modern ivrit... "HaRav" Ben Yehuda really cared about authentic tradition.

I didn't think you were talking about sefardic pronunciation. It looks like some people equate modern ivrit pronunication & sefardic pronunciation though & I don't think that's accurate. (Plus lashon hakodesh & ivrit are not the same language.)

Mommy3.5

Sun, Apr 11 2010, 2:53 pm

EvenI wrote:

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Reading comprehension is key here...

I never said the sefardic traditions are superior. I did say that they are likely closer to the original minhag, but that is all. (Heck I'd be denying my nice chassic Hungarian heritage if I truly believed that)

Hmmm, funny after all the pesach threads that one can suggest that masorah can change as long as it is an authentic change. A month ago it was all "we cannot change anything....even if it makes no sense in the current time". (Which BTW, I don't necessarily disagree with. I think people SHOULD keep their minhagim)

I am not making misleading comments about tenuot. Its a fact that they are a recent invention. But then certain jews like to rewrite the parts of history they find distasteful.