Spinoff....OMG.....Seminary Girls

ora_43

Fri, May 14 2010, 6:50 am

Going back to the OP

For one thing, there are more reasons to give children a Jewish education than learning chessed. A father is obligated to teach his son Torah, and to teach his daughter enough that she will know how to fulfill the mitzvot - which is a lot. So a person is obligated to do what they can to provide Jewish schooling even if it won't improve the child's middot.

As others have said, this doesn't seem to be a case of seminary girls disliking chessed. Rather, it's a case of girls being irresponsible. It's still a problem, of course, but it's not necessarily a problem of not realizing the importance of chessed.

Two other thoughts
If you want to see if a certain kind of education is effective, you need a much much bigger sample. For example, it's only by looking at schools throughout Israel that you can see which systems have the highest rate of IDF enlistment. It's only by looking at entire communities that you can see which ones have the highest rates of volunteerism. Looking at a single chiloni person, or even a single chiloni school, compared to a single religious school, is not enough.

In this case, that would mean looking at rates of volunteerism (or reliability, if that's your concern) among hundreds of 19-year-old BY graduates and comparing it to volunteerism (/reliability) among hundreds of public high school graduates. Then you'd have a real comparison. Looking at a handful of irresponsible girls and concluding that there's no point to sending kids to Jewish high schools is not logical.

And also - it says in the shema to put the words of Torah "al levavecha," on your heart. I've heard that interpreted as meaning that sometimes, the words don't go into a person's heart right away. But if they learn Torah, at some point, when their heart opens to it, the words will go in.

If you don't ever put that Torah on a person's heart, then even when they're open to changing their ways, they won't be inspired. If you don't bother to teach a girl chessed, or never explain the Jewish approach to it, then even if someday she's open to becoming more giving she may not know how. But if you teach a girl chessed for years, even if it doesn't sink in right away, you leave open the chance that someday she'll experience something that leads her to internalize what she was taught.

HindaRochel

Fri, May 14 2010, 7:19 am

I don't have the time, the koach or the mental energy to go back and forth through all the posts.

Chesed basically means giving without hope of return. That doesn't mean return isn't nice.

In terms of Seminary girls; these young women are paying for an education. They should get an education. Part of the education is doing chesed. If one doesn't like that...well, that's like saying I want to pay for college but I don't want to take a history course.

Absolutely if the fit isn't good all efforts should be made to make the fit better. That does take a lot of work. But that is the job of the seminary.

The seminary needs to coordinate before the girls arrival, what skills they have, what their preferences are in terms of work etc. etc. Also, what needs to be taken into consideration, is travel costs and how a particular person feels about traveling. If one gets car sick, taking a bus an hours ride away isn't the job for them. They arrive sick, and spend twice as much time on their chesed efforts as someone who likes to see different parts of town.

All this takes effort on everyones part. But to say "I don't want to do this it is boring" is to declare that you don't take your job (being in seminary) seriously. And to say it takes to much time to coordinate it well means the seminary isn't taking, at least this aspect, of education seriously.

shabri

Fri, May 14 2010, 7:31 am

ValleyMom wrote:

I am by no stretch of the imagination engaging in Bais Yaakov/Seminary Bashing.

What I AM saying is that Psychologists have studied teenagers and it has been proven that at this age in social/emotional development teenagers are notoriously SELFISH!

It doesn't have much to do with where you go to school but I would imagine teenagers in Beverly High are probably far more self absorbed than the average Bais Yaakov/Seminary student.

I mean seriously....

Don't you think the average teenage girl is far more concerned with how her lip gloss is holding up in the heat than Mrs. Horowitz's handling the new baby along with her two toddlers...

REALLY!

Sorry I work with teens (have for 10+ years) and don't agree. Teenagers are only self absorbed if they are not taught anything differently. You can and actually should teach them empathy, selfless giving, and community service. In fact university students (same age as sem girls) are known for taking up causes--save the whales, build homes for homeless etc. There is no reason to excuse an 18 yr olds irresponsibility as "teens will be teens". I used to work in a sem and was a strong advocate of saying the bus leaves at x time and if you're not there, its going without you.

Thats how we raise responsible, caring young adults.

amother

Fri, May 14 2010, 7:46 am

shalhevet wrote:

The rest of your post is very sensible, but this bit horrified me. Because these people are your friends/ relatives etc they owe you something? Can't you see that even if someone is your first cousin or your parents' ex-neighbour they are doing a tremendous chessed having you for a Shabbos, cleaning up after you, cooking for you etc?

HORRIFIED?
I think that is a bit much. the relatives I went to most often, were the same relatives who sent two of their daughters to Touro in America- they both LIVED with my parents for 3 and a half years!! they gave both girls their own rooms, food every day, paid all their bills (including american cell phone bills by adding them to our family plan)- so no- it was not "shnorring" for me to go to them for shabbos once or twice a month. FAR FROM IT!

Friends / ex neighbors are the type of people who will CALL YOU UP and say "you are in E"Y for a year. If you don't call me and come for shabbos in the next few months...we will take it personally you know....let us know what we can do to make you feel at home"

and since they were friends, not random strangers, they meant it. I never went anywhere and kicked my feet up. Of course I would wash dishes and clear the table (if I was not told to go sit down I am a guest get out of the kitchen). But there is a difference, a real difference, between going to a stranger and having a meal, and helping because you feel *obligated* as *playback*, and doing so for your mother's best friend since she was in seminary and HS who lives in E"Y and visits whenever she comes to the states, or your fathers best friend who made aliya five years ago, or your aunt, etc.

The only relatives where I felt almost uncomfortable at eating their food and felt like a real shnorrer were my father's first cousin in bnei brak. they were destitute. but they called and invited me all the time! and when I didn't come (the wife is a very "say it like it is" kind of lady) she would say "are you not coming because you think we are too poor???" so even if I did feel a bit uncomfortable, but with her questioning me / "mocking" me like that- I HAD to go or else I would insult them! and I always- always- always! brought something for shabbos. And in addition, I ALWAYS brought her flowers because I knew she would appreciate them. and I would bring the kids little toys or treats, ever single time. Not that I thought you have to "pay your way," but because I loved all of them and felt like if they are doing me this huge service of shuffling around their kids in their tiny 3 bedroom apartment to make room for me....I want to do everything possible to show them how thankful I am. but when push comes to shove- they were still family - and I was not calling up random strangers in like various neighborhoods asking for meals. I never, not once, did that.

shalhevet wrote:

You didn't 'owe' anyone anything. But Jewish people do chessed without deciding who 'owes' more - just like your friends and relatives did chessed for you, you can do chessed for someone else.

right- but as a teenager, like I said I was 17- I was not interested in changing diapers (for free mind you) of a girl who was maybe 5 years older than me, had 3 kids, was a SAHM with a DH in Kollel, but needed a break, or had to run an errand. Maybe this was because I was immature and couldn't see the big picture - chessed is chessed no matter who it was for- but it was probably also because I was not really ever much of the babysitting type. In high school, I babysat for one family all the time, but I said no to all other offers, no matter how many dollars were thrown at me. and I certainly was not interested in being the "cleaning lady type" either!
My "chessed assignment" was something that- trust me, most other 17 year olds would run from really fast. the family with the kid I was doing chessed for- ended up sitting shiva for the boy that summer. It was devastating for me, but I can see now years later, my time with them impacted me, and he and his family changed my life forever. I chose the career I chose, because of this boy and because I wanted to make a difference in the lives of suffering kids. B"H I was there with my family for a Chasunah and was able to be menachem avel. my chessed assignment changed my life. It was INTENSE WORK- even if it was not scrubbing a SAHM's floor or taking her kids to the park while she rests. I am not saying such "tasks" are not important. If she needs the help, she needs the help. who am I to judge, now in hindsight, with five kids, a full time job, BUT a housekeeper to help me get through the day. But I am saying, lots of 17 year olds might roll their eyes at it, and it has not as much to do with selfishness as it does with the fact that teenagers tend to see the world in black and white, much more than adults with years of life experience and perhaps more insight into the fact that things are not always as they seem.

Fox

Fri, May 14 2010, 1:02 pm

It seems to me like there are three separate discussions with the following theses mixed in here:

1. The OP has a chessed girl who, for various reasons, registers high on the brattiness index.

2. Kids are not like bananas; they don't all ripen at the same time. All children/teenagers need to go through the individuation process that often presents itself as self-centeredness. How we (and they) perceive and act out the individuation process is largely cultural, but any parent attempting to prevent the process needs to be locked up and added to the "another monster off the streets" thread. Some parents are better than others at helping their teenagers individuate in appropriate ways; some schools and teachers are savvier than others in helping kids get through this. And some kids are more malleable than others when it comes to being coached.

3. Seminaries and schools need to take a very active approach to organizing, managing, and following up on their chessed programs. Schools that treat chessed as a throwaway activity will generally produce girls who either don't take their obligations very seriously or who benefit very little from the experience.

But can I vote to shut down any seminary or school that harps on the idea of a particular experience being "time for themselves"? That's not education . . . that's a day at the spa! As my own daughters approach seminary age, I hear this over and over from principals, assistant principals, teachers, advisors . . . everyone except the custodial staff. I also hear it regarding expensive camps, trips, and Shabbatons held at resorts.

I'm not against girls having fun at seminary, school, camp, etc. -- of course they should have wonderful times to remember! But "do something for yourself" is not what most teenagers need to hear; in fact, it's advice better suited to their mothers, many of whom haven't done much "for themselves" in a very, very long time.

While Louche was gracious enough not to begrudge the seminary movement in general, I'm not so gracious. Let's assume that most seminaries do a phenomenal job. The problem is that most parents can't afford it; yet the pressure to attend is intense. Principals and advisors in my DDs' school work relentlessly to make sure 100 percent of their girls go to seminary. The only way you can get out of it is if you're Chassidish. Oh, and how to pay for it? They're curiously silent about that part.

amother

Fri, May 14 2010, 5:22 pm

Raisin wrote:

Quote:

but when push comes to shove- they were still family - and I was not calling up random strangers in like various neighborhoods asking for meals. I never, not once, did that.

But not every seminary girl is lucky enough to have close friends and family to host them. And you are no more of a tzaddekes because you had people clamouring to host you.

JOOC, have you ever been a SAHM with several small children and NO household help? even for a short period of time? (even if you have, some husbands are more helpful then others so it is still hard to judge)

yes, the semester between finishing college (january) and starting graduate school (september). no help, no parents nearby. That is why I was saying, I might not have understood as a 17 year old, but I can now with hindsight see that it is stressful. Then after my foray as a "SAHM" before starting grad school, I was a working (/student?) mom for an entire year - full time- with 3 kids and no housekeeper, cleaning lady, or nanny. of course it was overhwelming- but I would never dream of asking a bais yaakov age girl to come do the cleaning or watching my kids as a "chessed" to me! just a totally different world I guess. now I am fortunate enough to have help (and more kids too B"H!), after finishing school and my DH getting a better paying job, we can afford much more help.

I do not think every seminary girl was like me. I was just saying this generalization is out of hand. most of my roomates had ample choices of relatives and friends to go to, without "shnorring" from strangers.

amother

Fri, May 14 2010, 6:03 pm

[quote="louche"]

Raisin wrote:

Quote:

but when push comes to shove- they were still family - and I was not calling up random strangers in like various neighborhoods asking for meals. I never, not once, did that.

Bully for you as they say in Jolly Old England. But many seminaries have mandatory off Shabbosim in which the kitchen is closed and meals aren't served. If a girl has neither friends nor family in the country--and believe it or not, there are such creatures, difficult though it may be for you to believe--she has one of two choices: spend Shabbos alone in her dorm room eating challah rolls and deli that she hopes won't spoil in the heat, or "calling up random strangers in like various neighborhoods asking for meals."

agreed. I would not say that my situation was "usual" (though it was not unusual really either- I guess there are all types, and maybe it depends on the seminary). But just like when I invite a new couple in the neighborhood over for Shabbos lunch, I neither expect or demand that they
-bring a hostess gift
-bring flowers
- come early to help "set up"
-wash my dishes
-clear my table
- feed my kids during the meal
or
-(I am shocked at this one! but it was suggested! I dont remember if it was this thread or the last) watch my kids after lunch so I can relax

I cannot for the life of me understand how these are regular expectations!

If you don't want to host them, say this week doesn't work, or we are invited out, or maybe a different week, or just sorry, we cant have guests this week. or we are having bochurim so it will not work, or we want to have a quiet shabbos maybe next shabbos or I had (or DH had) a hard/busy week so maybe next shabbos....I can go on and on and on.

No one "owes" someone who invites them for a meal (presumably a mitzvah? right? hachnosas orchim?), or even a whole shabbos! ever heard the line from the 80's for drugs- "just say no"? if you are not intersted in hosting guests, just don't do it! doing it with strings attached is really really strange to me. babysitting or diapering their kids "in return" so they can sleep after the meal is beyond absurd. of course having courteous guests who help clear is always nice, and having guests who offer to bring some cookies, candies, or whatever, is a bonus- none of those things are required. it is not a tit for tat.

shabri

Sat, May 15 2010, 3:07 pm

[quote="amother"]

louche wrote:

Raisin wrote:

Quote:

but when push comes to shove- they were still family - and I was not calling up random strangers in like various neighborhoods asking for meals. I never, not once, did that.

I don't think that the ppl were saying that "we will only host girls who in return will watch our kids, clear the table etc."

The point that Shalhevet and others were trying to make was that the response to the original OP which was "you need help, hire someone don't ask MY daughter to help you out" was ironic b/c it is many of these same girls who will call up week after week asking to go for shabbos and expect to be hosted. The fact the you can send your kid to Israel and EXPECT others to take them in, is a normal expectation. Whereas, an overworked mother, who signed up to receive help from the local school is "taking advantage" (FYI, I never had chessed help)

Jewish ppl do chessed. Whether its a sem girl helping out an overworked mom, or an American kollel family hosting many students every shabbos. If you can't do it, say no. But don't say you'll do it and then flake out..Imagine if this girl was all set to come to the OP for shabbos and when she got there, the family was not around. No place to sleep or eat. We would all be horrified. But somehow he committing to help the OP and not showing up, is ok.

amother

Sat, May 15 2010, 3:24 pm

Shopmiami49 wrote:

louche wrote:

OP, the impression I'm getting from your last post has nothing to do with seminary and everything to do with poor chinuch AT HOME. Seminary is not, cannot, and should not be expected to be a magical year that will convert a spoiled brat into a responsible member of society. Seminary is supposed to be the crown, the culmination of some 14 or 15 years of formal Jewish education, the "finishing school" that will put the final polish on a quality product. If a student has not been brought up to be a mensch in the first 18 years of her life, a year in seminary is not going to do it. Sadly, there are parents who view seminary or yeshiva as legitimate dumping grounds for their inconvenient children.

Put the blame for your ill-bred "volunteers" where it belongs, squarely on the shoulders of their parents, or in some cases their genes.

ummm....I think I disagree with you on this point. I nkow from personal expereince and also of those of pple whom I am close with, that spending a yr in a different evironment away from home can have a really big impact...in both good and bad ways. A girl can havea very good chinuch at home, taught how to help out, etc. but being thrown into a year in seminary, where the girls have to fend for themselves a lot can really puch some of that chinuch to the side. Imagine the girls who are not comfortable asking ppl for favors - they still have to find places to go for shabbos, call ppl and ask for meals...it can really turn a person with selfless tendencies into someone who has some selfish tendencies. I don't htink that anyone is to blame here - this is just the way that it turns out. BUT, in my previous post about my chessed girl, I do feel that her sem is very largely to blame. They are giving over the message. "It's a year for yourself. You do not have to give if you do not want to. Take what you can get - its a year of spiritual growth. call for shabbos meals b/c that's what you have to do. but helping? you dont have to." in other words, "its ok to be selfish." And even if it's not said straight out, the fact that the sem schedules all of their yom iyunim and tiyulim on the one chessed day instead of any of the other 5 days in the week (and yes, it is every single time...) says to the girls point blank that chessed is not important - helping out is not important - giving is not important. as a role model, the sem is showing the girls the perfect example of backing out on commitments and responsibility. now, after a year of being in a place like that, EVEN if you had the best chinuch at home, would you really say that it has nothing to do with the seminary??

I think they are on to something when they talk about how seminary brainwashes girls...

I couldn't agree more! And that's why I feel that Sharfman's is so different! (Let's give credit where credit is due) They almost never schedule anything on the day of chesed (as a matter of fact, I can only remember ONCE in the years I've had chesed from Sharfman's that this happened) Therefore the girls really take chesed seriously! It totally depends on the school's attitude. I also had a girl from Nachlas, who NEVER cancelled, and whenever her school had s/t on the day of chesed, she offered to come on a different day instead. I'm sure that kind of attitude comes from the school!