Anyone else mildly offended by this?

chavamom

Sat, Nov 20 2010, 8:22 pm

So, just by way of example, I'm reading All For the Boss again (dd brought it home from school). There are numerous family photos including ones of *gasp* women (including ones of Reb. Shain herself). Scandalous! Anyone want to take on Reb. Shain and her frumkeit?

kitov

Sat, Nov 20 2010, 8:25 pm

chavamom wrote:

If a girl from today, reads this book, she would probably gasp more that Reb. Shain's mother went to the movies and that Ruchoma went to the beach to swim till she was twelve!!

chocolate moose

Sat, Nov 20 2010, 8:46 pm

I had my picture in Redbook years back. I was happy to have it there !!!

Mama Bear

Sat, Nov 20 2010, 8:57 pm

Ruchoma Shain would have her picture posted in a theoretical women's magazine. but lots of rebbetzins and even stam women who were interviewed wouldn't.

DrMom

Sun, Nov 21 2010, 2:38 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I have news for you, even if there would be frum magaizne that would publish pictures of women, most of those types of women who would get interviewed for a frum magazine wuldnt want their pictures published in a magazine.

So? This may be true. Or not. Give them the option of opting out. Don't make the decision for them. Ditto for men (perhaps not all men want their photos published either).

chavamom

Sun, Nov 21 2010, 10:50 am

Mama Bear wrote:

Ruchoma Shain would have her picture posted in a theoretical women's magazine. but lots of rebbetzins and even stam women who were interviewed wouldn't.

I brought it as an example that not all women have a problem with it. Other rebetzins that I have seen frequently in publicity photos are Reb. Twersky and Reb. Jungreis - they have their own promo shots that are used for publicity for their speaking engagements. And I was more directing my comments at bs'd, not your comment.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 11:33 am

I’ve exhausted all means of explanations, so I’m coming armed with

I discussed this topic with my husband and reviewed my posts in this thread with him. He said everything I wrote is correct and added the following:

יבמות מ"ו ע"א
לך לך אמרין נזירא סחור סחור לכרמא לא תקרב

The topic of avoiding photos of women in magazines can be compared to a nozir who took a vow not to drink wine. The Gemora says that he’s told to quickly pass around the vineyard and not to come too close to the grapes. In other words, to stay away and not to go near the vineyard lest he might eat some grapes by mistake. Look at the precaution! And you will ask, can he not control himself?

It’s beyond women’s understanding men’s urge of looking at something they’re not supposed to. Chazal in the Gemora and the Rambam were experts in Toras Hanefesh and understood the strong desire of men and their shortcomings better than us. Accordingly they broached this subject and the severity of this sin in several places despite it seeming dim to many who are very lenient about it. This human nature did not change over the generations and it’s still as tempting as it was in the time of the Chazal.

For those who advocate publishing photos of women in chareidi publications and have no fear about their husband staring at them and say there’s nothing to worry about and should not be the concern of the publishers since their husband will overpower his temptations, Chazal pointed out and stressed:
כתובות י"ג ע"ב
אין אפוטרופוס לעריות
even a watchman would not be sufficient when it comes to these temptations.

Unfortunately a person who gets used to only giving a glimpse at photos of women, will eventually stare at women....

יומא ע"ד ע"ב
אמר רבי זירא מאי קרא טוב מראה עינים מהלך נפש אמר ריש לקיש טוב מראה עינים באשה יותר מגופו של מעשה שנאמר טוב מראה עינים מהלך נפש

מכילתא שמות י''ט ט
אינו דומה שמיעה לראיה
You cannot compare that which you hear to that which you see.
We all know the famous saying: A picture is worth more than 1000 words

יומא פ"ז ע"א
כיון שעבר אדם עבירה ושנה בה ... נעשית לו כהיתר
For a person who transgresses a sin a few times, the sin appears to him as if it’s a heter gomur and the issur does not exist anymore.

An erliche yid would not stare at any woman, even to a Rebbetzin, while he’s talking to her. In publications, though, if on one of the pages there’s a picture of a beautiful tzniusdik woman, full of yiddishe chein, his temptations can reach very high. And if these publications are read in the privacy of the bathroom where there’s plenty of time to relax and time to go through page by page slowly or when no one is around and there’s no one to be ashamed of, he would need to muster all his energy to turn the page. Do women take the full responsibility to be machshil these innocent men?

The Vilna Gaon asked the Dubna Maggid to give him mussar.
The Maggid told him, “You’re a holy man who sits a whole day indoors and don’t go on the streets, so you can be a kodosh. But it’s a bigger nessoyon and a higher madreigeh for a person walking on the street with total shmiras einayim.”
One of the tzaddikim when he heard this story reacted and said, “I interpret the possuk in Mishlei (3:7) אל תהי חכם בעיניך as ‘Don’t show off chochmos with your eyes’. It’s true that it’s a big chochma for a person to go on the street and refrain from looking around, as the Dubna Maggid pointed out, but in this case it’s better to be a tomim and not take upon yourself nissyonos and temptations in order to show your chochma and yiras Shomayim...”

רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק ד:א ופרק ד:ג
ארבעה ועשרים דברים מעכבין את התשובה

ומהן חמשה דברים העושה אותן אין חזקתו לשוב מהן לפי שהם דברים קלים בעיני רוב האדם ונמצא חוטא והוא ידמה שאין זה חטא ואלו הן (ג) המסתכל בעריות מעלה על דעתו שאין בכך כלום שהוא אומר וכי בעלתי או קרבתי אצלה והוא אינו יודע שראיית העינים עון גדול שהיא גורמת לגופן של עריות שנאמר ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם

The Rambam summarizes that there are 24 matters that prevent a person from doing tshuva. Out of the 24 there's a group of 5 things where a person that transgresses it would in all probability not do tshuva over it because these things are taken lightly for most people. And although the person sins he is convinced that he did not commit any sin and therefore there’s no reason for him to do tshuva.
The third illustration the Rambam mentions is someone looking at aroyos while thinking he didn't do anything wrong and saying, "Did I actually live with her or did I even approach her?" The Rambam concludes that [this innocent thinking person] does not know that looking with his eyes is a grave sin which causes doing the actual avieros of aroyos as the possuk states "velo sosuru achrei levavchem ve'acahrei eineichem" - not to stray after your heart and eyes.

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 12:03 pm

I still don't understand keeping photos of women out of magazines specifically targeted to women, such as Binah and Family First.

Besiyata Dishmaya: Why would a man concerned about this open a woman's magazine -- step into the vineyard -- in the first place? Analogies have limitations, but to really keep that nazir pure we'd have to assur the growing of grapes, and then the rest of us wouldn't be able to enjoy a glass of kiddush wine.

Ruchel

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 12:11 pm

Rebbishe wedding invites: http://michtavim.blogspot.com/......html

People definitely read the papers once upon a time. TV was common in charedi homes until quite recently, and it's still found. My chassidishe neighbours have a tv. My shtark chassidishe acquaintances have "only" videos, but a full library! I went to a chassidish rabbi in NY with the same thing...

Quote:

I’m sure you would have a very hard time controlling yourself if you were craving for these cakes.

But much less if it was assur (not just fattening) and much less again if I knew my spouse would go crazy.

Not everyone defines shmiras eynaim as never seeing a woman. Some (rabbanim) define it as not watching on purpose. You can refrain from reading mags were you will find untznius pics, or read them and not look at the pics, or look at the pics after reading the caption, or look at the pics carefully, starting by the top, and see if it is potentially untznius. All these ways are taught ways, in non modern at all settings.

I do give my child foods I find tempting, almost every day, like snack food I cannot have because it has MSG. No, it's not off limits for everyone because it is for me.

Quote:

Chareidim generally do not have family photos hanging where non-family members can view them.

This has not been my experience.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 1:33 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

I still don't understand keeping photos of women out of magazines specifically targeted to women, such as Binah and Family First.

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I agree with this if it’s geared for women and mentioned so on the cover. Those who are careful with shmiras einayim will not peek into it unless approved.

Raizle

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 2:45 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I’ve exhausted all means of explanations,[/img]

you are right that this topic is exhausted already, I don't have the energy nor time to continue.

Quote:

so I’m coming armed with [img]http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/84/seforim.jpg

As stated we do not agree on the interpretation and application of what you are stating to be halacha.
Nor do I agree with your understanding of men's nature. To some extent yes but not completely.
I don't think of them as animals that need to be controlled by others. These sources with warnings were meant for them to work on themselves and strengthen themselves.
You still have not provided even one source to back up as Rubber Ducky suggested assuring the growing of vineyards.
There is no need to continue convincing us with sources that a man needs to be careful about what he sees and looks at. We already know that and knew it before this discussion. That was never the argument.

Depressed

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 3:38 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I’ve exhausted all means of explanations, so I’m coming armed with

I discussed this topic with my husband and reviewed my posts in this thread with him. He said everything I wrote is correct and added the following:

Ok, lets play the husband game:

לך לך אמרין נזירא סחור סחור לכרמא לא תקרב

The topic of avoiding photos of women in magazines can be compared to a nozir who took a vow not to drink wine. The Gemora says that he’s told to quickly pass around the vineyard and not to come too close to the grapes. In other words, to stay away and not to go near the vineyard lest he might eat some grapes by mistake. Look at the precaution! And you will ask, can he not control himself?

Firstly, we dont make up own gedarim, we have a Chazal. There is a Gam in Baba Basra, you dont close the markets of Tzippori, because maybe an am haaretz woint take trumos and maasaros, and a Gam in Avoda Zara, where one would think the Ac"m is cooking rt next to the Yeed at the fair, obviously the question of treif fats splashing, as well as being in such close proximity to pagans, yet the Gammarra debates it back and forth and comes up with 5 heterim..

In Choshen Mispat, there are entire chapters devoted to not endangering someone's livelihood. Basically, it comes down to

(sorry I dont have hebrew fonts).. im yesh darcha ahrina rasha hu, I leis le darcha achrina onus hu..

If women are washing clothes by the river and they need to expose their lower legs in order to do so, and a man needs to walk by, if there is an alternate path, and the man doesnt use it, hes a Rasha, if there isnt an alternate path he is an onus, its permitted as its unavoidable.

Notice we dont say , the women have to wash the clothes in a hidden places or w/o lifting their dress.
It’s beyond women’s understanding men’s urge of looking at something they’re not supposed to. Chazal in the Gemora and the Rambam were experts in Toras Hanefesh and understood the strong desire of men and their shortcomings better than us. Accordingly they broached this subject and the severity of this sin in several places despite it seeming dim to many who are very lenient about it. This human nature did not change over the generations and it’s still as tempting as it was in the time of the Chazal.

For those who advocate publishing photos of women in chareidi publications and have no fear about their husband staring at them and say there’s nothing to worry about and should not be the concern of the publishers since their husband will overpower his temptations, Chazal pointed out and stressed:
כתובות י"ג ע"ב
אין אפוטרופוס לעריות
even a watchman would not be sufficient when it comes to these temptations.

There is no greater aveira then distorting the meaning of a Chazal... Arayus is physical contact with someone who isnt your wife. Some contact such as kissing the forehead or cheek and holding hands is permitted with a mother/sister.. Arayus isnt looking at modest pictures in magazines. Even steering although ossur, is not 'arayus' ..

Unfortunately a person who gets used to only giving a glimpse at photos of women, will eventually stare at women....

יומא ע"ד ע"ב
אמר רבי זירא מאי קרא טוב מראה עינים מהלך נפש אמר ריש לקיש טוב מראה עינים באשה יותר מגופו של מעשה שנאמר טוב מראה עינים מהלך נפש

According to many meforshim this refers to looking at pritzus..

מכילתא שמות י''ט ט
אינו דומה שמיעה לראיה
You cannot compare that which you hear to that which you see.
We all know the famous saying: A picture is worth more than 1000 words

יומא פ"ז ע"א
כיון שעבר אדם עבירה ושנה בה ... נעשית לו כהיתר
For a person who transgresses a sin a few times, the sin appears to him as if it’s a heter gomur and the issur does not exist anymore.

An erliche yid would not stare at any woman, even to a Rebbetzin, while he’s talking to her. In publications, though, if on one of the pages there’s a picture of a beautiful tzniusdik woman, full of yiddishe chein, his temptations can reach very high. And if these publications are read in the privacy of the bathroom where there’s plenty of time to relax and time to go through page by page slowly or when no one is around and there’s no one to be ashamed of, he would need to muster all his energy to turn the page. Do women take the full responsibility to be machshil these innocent men?

So dont have a wedding album or pictures of family simchas, unless the only pictures are of the wife and daughters.. There is no shortage of men lusting after their sister-in-law...

The Vilna Gaon asked the Dubna Maggid to give him mussar.
The Maggid told him, “You’re a holy man who sits a whole day indoors and don’t go on the streets, so you can be a kodosh. But it’s a bigger nessoyon and a higher madreigeh for a person walking on the street with total shmiras einayim.”
One of the tzaddikim when he heard this story reacted and said, “I interpret the possuk in Mishlei (3:7) אל תהי חכם בעיניך as ‘Don’t show off chochmos with your eyes’. It’s true that it’s a big chochma for a person to go on the street and refrain from looking around, as the Dubna Maggid pointed out, but in this case it’s better to be a tomim and not take upon yourself nissyonos and temptations in order to show your chochma and yiras Shomayim...”

So dont let your husband go the store, mall, work, park... stay in Bais Medrash 24/7....

And once again, dont go Taliban and cause more harm then good, by making women non-entities. They are only these evil seductresses that only exist to tempt men to sin.. Maybe YOU shouldnt have the magazine at all. Because maybe its a waste of yiddishe gelt, and bitul Torah, even without the pictures. And for sure, these magazines DONT BRING SOMEONE TO YIRAS SHOMAYIM....

Read a maaseh book of Gedolim, a mesilas yesharim, a chovos levovos, a tzeena reena, a meam loez... If you occupy yourselfd with things that bring you to chochma and yiras shomayim you wont have time for silly magazines, that are just lotzonus rachmana latzlon....

רמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק ד:א ופרק ד:ג
ארבעה ועשרים דברים מעכבין את התשובה

ומהן חמשה דברים העושה אותן אין חזקתו לשוב מהן לפי שהם דברים קלים בעיני רוב האדם ונמצא חוטא והוא ידמה שאין זה חטא ואלו הן (ג) המסתכל בעריות מעלה על דעתו שאין בכך כלום שהוא אומר וכי בעלתי או קרבתי אצלה והוא אינו יודע שראיית העינים עון גדול שהיא גורמת לגופן של עריות שנאמר ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם

The Rambam summarizes that there are 24 matters that prevent a person from doing tshuva. Out of the 24 there's a group of 5 things where a person that transgresses it would in all probability not do tshuva over it because these things are taken lightly for most people. And although the person sins he is convinced that he did not commit any sin and therefore there’s no reason for him to do tshuva.
The third illustration the Rambam mentions is someone looking at aroyos while thinking he didn't do anything wrong and saying, "Did I actually live with her or did I even approach her?" The Rambam concludes that [this innocent thinking person] does not know that looking with his eyes is a grave sin which causes doing the actual avieros of aroyos as the possuk states "velo sosuru achrei levavchem ve'acahrei eineichem" - not to stray after your heart and eyes.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 4:12 pm

Raizle wrote:

Why are you pointing your finger at me? Point it at the Gemora and the Rambam.

Quote:

You still have not provided even one source to back up as Rubber Ducky suggested assuring the growing of vineyards.

Nezirim are only those few who took upon themselves to be a nozir. The issur of shmiras einayim regards all of Klal Yisroel.

chavamom

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 5:06 pm

Raizle - don't try to confuse her with the facts, her mind is made up. This is not a discussion anymore, but a propaganda session from the Taliban wing of the charedi right.

gryp

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 5:20 pm

Depressed wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I’ve exhausted all means of explanations, so I’m coming armed with

Thank you. I didn't even know where to start with this post.

Raizle

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 6:54 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Why are you pointing your finger at me? Point it at the Gemora and the Rambam.

BD, are you paying attention to all that we are saying?
I am not pointing to Gemora and Rambam because I have no problem with what it says there. I am pointing to you and your misinterpretation of all the quotes and sources you are bringing.

Depressed, well said.

Quote:

Read a maaseh book of Gedolim, a mesilas yesharim, a chovos levovos, a tzeena reena, a meam loez... If you occupy yourselfd with things that bring you to chochma and yiras shomayim you wont have time for silly magazines, that are just lotzonus rachmana latzlon....

yep thats exactly what I said before. Chassidishe men who are that frum in my circles at least are expected to have their nose in a sefer of a higher caliber then a silly magazine article.
don't get me wrong, I have no problem with with a guy picking up some light (appropriate) reading but I just don't see it as such a necessity for them that we have to go all out there to "protect" them in case they have as much self control as a....(I shall not complete my sentence)

gryp

Mon, Nov 22 2010, 7:07 pm

Quote:

Chassidishe men who are that frum in my circles at least are expected to have their nose in a sefer of a higher caliber then a silly magazine article.

Which is why I protested the statements regarding Gedolim disciplining themselves over a Reader's Digest.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Tue, Nov 23 2010, 7:35 am

Most chareidim on this site follow this shitta and have been sitting quietly in the background. I will now pass the floor to them (to those who have the strength of character to overlook the chutzpah, disrespect, bashing and insulting of the so-called "tolerant ones").

Apple pie

Tue, Nov 23 2010, 10:05 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I completely disagree. Post a poll, even only in the chareim only forum and you will see.

PinkFridge

Tue, Nov 23 2010, 10:48 am

Apple pie wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

I completely disagree. Post a poll, even only in the chareim only forum and you will see.

I know this was a typo, but I like the possibilities ;-)