Am I Being An Unreasonable Old Bag?

freidasima

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 8:24 am

There is something that some of you seem to be ignoring. The fact that a mother can have needs that override those of a particular child.
And that sometimes, for a mother's own sanity, she has to cut to a certain degree with one of her children.

It's nice in theory to say that a mother has to do everything to keep her child with her, or to accept an underlying premise that a mother is supposed - by virtue of having given birth to a child - sacrifice her health and or her sanity in order to act as a "parent" to that child.

Sometimes, and in fact in many cases, when it comes to an older teen that just isn't possible. It's not realistic if that mother is to have a life. And yes, you are allowed to have a normal life even if you have a child who is difficult, OTD, a threatening bully, or a child that endangers your health, your sanity, or that of your other children.

Sometimes there is no "temporarily" removing a child but a permanent removal is necessary.

Here's one that most of you might disagree with but a conclusion that I have come to through observation and professional experience. There is definitely something in the idea of a "bad seed" in the sense of there being people who under normal circumstances are rather unredeemable. And they were just the same when they were little kids. I believe that it is a glitch in DNA, in biological makeup which one day maybe brain sciences can solve. With some kids there are meds which bring them to compliance, with others there are meds that drug them so strongly that they are incapable of functioning because for them, functioning means doing harm.

There are kids who look normal, speak normally, but don't have a moral sense of right and wrong. Even little kids. They just don't get that setting fires is bad, or cutting off their sister's hair while she is sleeping is not normative. Or that putting a pillow over their mother's face while she sleeps if they are angry at her isn't done. When they are five and seven and nine we are physically stronger than they are so we cope. When they are teens they can endanger our lives and those of our other children. There is no "being a parent" to such children as there is no way that science knows of today to reach them. There is only to remove them, to drug them and to keep faaaar far away from them and keep your other kids faaaar far away from them.

Sounds horrible doesn't it? But it happens. Much more often than you know.
And there are variations of that behavior which are no way as extreme as the examples I brought, but where the only "parenting" possible for a parent who doesn't want to lose her sanity is to simply keep that child away from the home for an unlimited period of time.

I do believe that only when a mother or a parent can take care of herself and put herself in terms of physical and mental safety and sanity before her children (I'm not talking about war, or extremis, but on a daily basis) can she actually be a good mother. First to herself as she doesn't have a "mother" to care for her, and then to her other children.

Tamiri

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 9:38 am

Table, did you really read the OP?
"- She needs loads of different food items that I don't buy, claiming she's allergic to everything that I have, that it's not healthy, etc etc. I explained to her that I really don't have much money at the moment, and that I would need to know specifically what she wants. If it's a lot of expensive stuff that I can't afford to add to my monthly food budget, I said that she should cover that out of her wages as she will be working. I explained that things are a bit tight and I have such a high mortgage that right now a bigger food budget could actually make a lot of difference.

DD didn't like this and said that she's still my daughter. Therefore, I should essentially buy her whatever she needs and moreover I get child allowance also for her even though she's living with her father and that means I have to pay for everything. I didn't say anything to her, but considering he has never paid any mezonot or supported any of the kids living with me, I think that's really rather laughable."

And then:
"When it comes to the food issue, she has had serious constipation issues and she told me that she needs things like branflakes, wholewheat bread, pasta and I'm not sure what else. I buy brown bread for one of my other kids, so I said I have no problem getting a bit extra for her, but I just can't afford wholewheat everything and other expensive cereals. Right now, I'm going through a bit of a financial down that I'm hoping will pass. My mortgage is way too high for me, but I still can't do anything about that at this point. So yes, the extra few hundred shekels can make a difference when it comes to a roof over our heads."

There's no mention of bran, which is cheap. I am reading branflakes etc....

Last edited by Tamiri on Fri, Jun 10 2011, 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total

Tablepoetry

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 9:38 am

FS - I agree that a mother's sanity is important and yes, there are cases when mothers need to distance themselves from their own children to preserve their own sanity and their family's safety.

This does not seem to be the case here. The dd is normative, she is looking for a job, she wants to travel, she has friends. So she's selfish, thinks of herself before her mom's needs, doesn't think what she can do for her family, rather what she can get. So what? Lots of 17 year olds are like that. Certainly I wouldn't expect more from a 17 yr old who has gone through what she's gone through.

She's rude. That needs to be dealt with. She needs to understand that if she undercuts her mom, she will be sent home. BUT -- she is at the beginning of the road, not the end. She is NOT irredeemable!! Unless I really missed some info, she's not setting fires or molesting her siblings. Why cut her off so abruptly? Why give her the vibe that there is no maternal love for her, nor should she have any expectations of her mother???? Why treat her so coldly, negotiating over every crumb of bran? For every thing the mom denies her (like the computer, or access to the master bedroom), she should warm her dd's heart with something else.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 9:41 am

Tamiri wrote:

OK. That's vague. I'm not sure if it means whole wheat pasta or something else. IN any case, it doesn't seem like a demand for material stuff. Maybe she really is on a special diet. Rather than be on the defensive, why not approach her like a friend, and work together?

freidasima

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 9:58 am

Table you have a few very normal assumptions which don't always hold true. And certainly not in Charedi families.

She wants to "travel". That is not normative for a 17 year old charedi girl who in that kind of lifestyle and being the oldest in a big family wanting to travel is nice but if she is working she should be contributing to the family which is obviously quite in need.

You claim she is "at the beginning of the road" but you seem to forget that she is far past the middle actually. She lived at home. She chose not to live with her mother but with her father. She is only coming to her mother for her own needs because she can't get them from her father. There is no "family" here but rather just using her mother's home in Jerusalem as a hotel where she can live while earning money for her own desires, not needs. And I'm not even speaking of being civil to her mother.

Agewise she is half a year away from the age that so many girls are getting engaged and soon to be married. This is how she is talking to her mother - can she imagine that in seven or eight years she might have a five year old daughter who is sassing HER?

Negotiating over every crumb of bran. There are families where every crumb of bran takes food out of other children's mouths. So who do you choose? Which child do you feed?

You talk about going to work together as friends - that is based on a premise that the daughter is willing to WORK together with the mother, is willing to negotiate without all hell breaking loose when she doesn't get what she wants. There are many teens like that and they have to have the law laid down to them fast and hard at the beginning.

Finally, everything that will happen here will be an example for the other kids. You or someone else mentioned the fear that kids will think that they can lose their parent's love. No if the parents are normal they will love them no matter what. But they will definitely lose their parent's cooperation, assistance, respect, and physical presence. All those things aren't "givens" when you are takling about a kid who is something like 150 days away from her legal majority. They have to be earned continuously by normative behavior.

abound

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 10:21 am

freidasima wrote:

This! I do not know if this is for sure pertains to Shosh but it is definitely and unfortunate truth.

mummy-bh

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 10:30 am

ewa-jo wrote:

OP, I just had a solution to your daughter's internet problem! (btw... I agree with everyone that she shouldn't get to use your computer if you have a 'no kids on the computer' rule in the house)

Ask around your neighbors and get a few names of people who have kids and internet in their homes. In exchange for her watching their children (maybe later in the evening when the kids are asleep) she is free to use their computer when she's there... while your neighbors get a few hours out in peace.

uh, that sounds nice and cosy but I would never let a teenage babysitter use the internet without supervision.

shalhevet

Fri, Jun 10 2011, 11:00 am

I think part of the miscommunication on this thread is around why shosh's dd is requesting special food. It was kind of vague the way shosh said it in her OP - I read it as a teenager's latest craze for a certain diet, and that was pretty much confirmed by shosh later.

When one of my (chareidi, more than 2.2 children in the family) children tells me they are constipated, I tell them to make sure they are drinking plenty of water and eat lots of raw veggies and fruits, maybe some dried fruit if we have some in the house. Ch'v if it would be more chronic I would buy prunes or bran or ask in the pharmacy. Branflakes is not even on my radar (apart from which I don't think it is particularly effective - it might be good to stave off such a condition, but I don't think it is any more/less powerful than another couple of dates).

So, because the first post was vague, some of the posters have jumped on shosh, pretty much saying they can't understand why she wouldn't give her dd the food she *requires for her health*. But it emerged that it isn't really necessary - there are plenty of cheap alternatives. She doesn't have to eat white pasta or bread if it's bad for her. I'm sure if ch"v a child needed a diabetic, or gluten free, or milk free diet due to a real illness or allergy, shosh would happily budget the needs in.

I take it dd is only arriving in around 2 weeks, since the vacation begins then - why does her dd think she will still be chronically constipated by then? Iy"H she will be over it and just need to make sure she eats ww bread and plenty of fruit and veggies to not slip back into the problem.

Table - as FS has told you, the kind of things you think are perfectly normal for a teenager are not on a "normal" chareidi teen's radar - not a cell phone, not email access, not all kinds of financial demands on the parents. Yes, a girl that age will help out at home for a reasonable amount of time, maybe she'll do chessed outside too, she might run a kaytana or babysit or volunteer for something in the chofesh. She'll probably be rustling up some of the meals or bake for the entire family, not just for herself. She'll probably help care for younger siblings or nieces/nephews depending on her place in the family. If she is going to the pool or beach all or most of the money is her personal earnings.

Of course she'll have "fun" time during the summer too, but a chunk of the time will be to help others, mainly her family.

It just doesn't sound for a moment like shosh's dd is coming to give as well as take ie take her place as is normal in a large family. As others have said, she is expecting a hotel.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Jun 11 2011, 2:13 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Table - as FS has told you, the kind of things you think are perfectly normal for a teenager are not on a "normal" chareidi teen's radar - not a cell phone, not email access, not all kinds of financial demands on the parents. Yes, a girl that age will help out at home for a reasonable amount of time, maybe she'll do chessed outside too, she might run a kaytana or babysit or volunteer for something in the chofesh. She'll probably be rustling up some of the meals or bake for the entire family, not just for herself. She'll probably help care for younger siblings or nieces/nephews depending on her place in the family. If she is going to the pool or beach all or most of the money is her personal earnings.

Of course she'll have "fun" time during the summer too, but a chunk of the time will be to help others, mainly her family.

It just doesn't sound for a moment like shosh's dd is coming to give as well as take ie take her place as is normal in a large family. As others have said, she is expecting a hotel.

Shalhevet (and FS) let us for a moment assume that the standard charedi 17 year old girl is indeed a cheery mother's helper, who wouldn't dream of asking mom for money for new clothes or make-up, etc. (We shall forget for a moment all those threads about selfish seminary girls showing up for Shabbat, not helping, not offering to babysit, not clearing their dishes, not even communicating sometimes -- those girls must not be REALLY charedi. Or maybe because they are American. The standard Israeli charedi girl is obviously a lot more altruistic).

OK. So we have established that the typical charedi teen is a major help around the house. However, I think it's pretty clear from the first page that Shosh's daughter is not your typical charedi teen. She has been somewhat of an outsider for years already. How many typical charedi teens have fathers who committed adultery? How many have fathers who then married their mistresses? How many spent their adolescence living with their father rather than their mother?

The dd has not lived as a typical charedi teen and it is ludicrous to extend the social expections of standard charedi society towards her. Her background makes her an outsider, and perhaps also her own personality (she chose for one reason or another to live with her father). The dd is DIFFERENT.

[By the way, she's not THAT different. If I recall correctly, she is chabad, not BY. Chabad girls her age often have facebook and e-mail and travel abroad on their own to see family (FFB chabad). ]

So all my comments on her behaviour being OK are with her background in mind. All I'm saying is she's not acting in a way that should cause a parent to alienate her from the family. She hasn't done anything terrible. She's just letting out some anger with her chutzpah. Not OK, but not so terrible that one should advise her mother to turn a cold shoulder, rather than do her utmost to win her dd back.

lilacdreams

Sat, Jun 11 2011, 2:46 pm

ewa-jo wrote:

ewa-jo - Shosh lives in a neighborhood that no one actually admits to having internet Wink

Tablepoetry

Sat, Jun 11 2011, 3:35 pm

A rude, insolent teen shows up at her mother's. She hasn't lived with that mother since she was maybe 12 or 13 or 14. She did NOT walk out on her mother (as some clearly said) - people, she was a KID, not a cheating spouse. Maybe she decided to live with her father because she was always a daddy's girl. Maybe she never get along with mom. Maybe her father poisoned her against her mom. Maybe she didn't get along with her siblings and wanted some space. Maybe she was full of misplaced rage and teen hormones and made the wrong choice. Maybe she's just a very, very difficult kid and always was. I don't know. It doesn't matter right now; her choice does NOT make her a terrible person.

So the kid informs her mom that she's going to be living with her in the summer so she can find work. And she needs special food to avoid constipation.

There are two possible ways to respond. The mom can say, 'You are almost an adult. Take care of it yourself. I've got no extra money in the budget for nonsense'. Then the dd insists, so the mom adds, 'Maybe, maybe if I can spare the money I'll buy you one pack of whole wheat pasta. Maybe I'll be able to spare you a few slices of whole wheat bread from the loaf I already buy your brother. But really, you're an adult, I don't have time or money to deal with this issue. Go to kupat cholim, get yourself some medicine'.

Most of you are suggesting something along these lines. The mom can say the same thing, pretty much, but exude compassion and willingness to invest effort.

The mom can say, 'I'm sorry you have to deal with constipation. I know how frustrating that can be. Did you know that there are excellent medications that help with this issue? When you come, we'll make an appointment to my family doctor and he'll be sure to recommend something great. I will come with you if you want. I also have a good recipe for bran muffins. I'll make them for you especially when you come, I hope it will help. And you know we buy whole wheat bread for whoever needs it, that won't be an issue at all. Don't worry, we will sit down together and make sure that you have proper food to avoid constipation. I am really looking forward to seeing you soon'. This last sentence said even if the mother is dreading the dd coming. You never know. As Isramom said, it's never too late, and if you believe you might be able to win her back, you just might.

Last edited by Tablepoetry on Sat, Jun 11 2011, 4:25 pm; edited 2 times in total

mom4many

Sat, Jun 11 2011, 3:50 pm

About the computer - how does your home internet work? Do you have wireless? If so you can buy a plug-in-router (I think there's a better name for it, but I forgot), you know the type you plug in the USB outlet in the computer, about 4 inches long. Give it to her to take care of, and that will make her feel older. It only costs 80 shekel as far as I remember.

About health food, take her to a health food store with 50-100 shekel and tell her that this is her budget for X amount of time, and she can buy whatever she needs. I find flax seeds to be best for constipation, and only a few shekel. If you live in Jerusalem area, Nitzat Haduvdevan is the best and cheapest store. They'll also help you with whatever you need.

I'm not suggesting that you "give in" to her demands. But maybe you can show her this way that you DO care, and you're doing the best you can within your limits. I have very difficult teens, so I know...

freidasima

Sat, Jun 11 2011, 4:39 pm

Shosh hasn't answered for a while on this thread so it's no longer about her and her dd but more what other people's perceptions of her dd are. Which may or may not be correct or on the mark. There are parents who don't really wnat much of a relationship with grown children (almost 18 in the charedi world is pretty grown) under various circumstances that will disrupt the lives of all their other children. That is also something to take into account.

But know that there is divorce in the charedi world, there is adultery in the charedi world, and there are children who live with one parent and not another in the charedi world. But that doesn't give the family any more money than it has, usually less. And the demands when they involve money also involve taking food out of other children's mouths. No one seems to understand that. So...sophie's choice of sorts. Which child do you choose to feed when you don't have money? Enough for basic sustenance for the 5, 6 or 7 you have at home or the extra things that your 8th or 9th or 10th child demands for basic situations? What would you do if you only have X amount of money and it only enough for the very basics for the kids you already have? Not a penny extra money around, just the opposite...what would you do?