Gluten free home, and shabbos guests (challah)

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SJcookie

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 1:44 am

Seraph, I thought of you yesterday because I visited a health food store in a frum community, and there was a sign that said "we prepare gluten-free challah made of oats. Bracha: Hamotzi."

Would oat challah be an option for you?

Seraph

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 4:47 am

SJcookie wrote:

I said earlier up the thread that no one in my family can tolerate oats. (I realize its a long thread, it its easy to have missed that.)

Seraph

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 5:35 am

You know, I've stayed away from imamother for a while already, coming back just here and there to post certain things. The reason I've stayed away is because it seems that every thread, even the most innocent of threads turns into a bashing fest, because no one seems willing to see things from another person's point of view. I'd much rather just ask my IRL friends and facebook friends the questions I used to ask on imamother, because I find people with a name attached to their posts are much nicer and thoughtful than what seems like the majority of vocal posters on imamother.
But I had a question that is specifically allergy related, so I came back to post it in the allergy section of imamother, so I could write to an audience of people dealing with allergies and not just people who have no clue what it means to live with so many food restrictions.

In my original post I made it quite clear that I was addressing people with CELIAC or who are otherwise very gluten sensitive:
"Anyhow, those of you were are sensitive to gluten, specifically, because you can't just not serve challah at the shabbos meal, what do you do about guests and making sure food doesn't get cross contaminated?"

What did I get? I got some ideas of what to do, baruch hashem, which I plan on implementing, mostly from people who themselves have gluten issues or have other allergies.
But the rest of you?
What did you do?
You decided to criticize me for going on the type of diet that my family needs to do healthwise, for listening to what my doctors AND my rav said we should do, becoming "armchair physicians and dieticians and rabbanim", when trust me, our doctors and rabbis know our health situation and halacha better than you do.

Or, you, with no personal experience in the matter, decided to use this as a platform for criticizing me for taking care of my health and my family's health, saying "Why are you making such a big deal about nothing?" when it is NOT nothing.

Or, you, with no personal experience in this area, criticize me for watching what is on the table to make sure I don't get sick from people's mistakes. Trust me, if it were someone non jewish cooking in your kitchen, you would watch them "like a hawk" to make sure they didn't treif up your kitchen accidentally, not because they are being malicious or uncaring, but because if someone isn't a kosher keeper, they may not be aware and might inadvertantly do something that treifs up your kitchen, and you need to be aware which foods and which pots and pans might be problematic. So, when its kashrus, its ok to watch like a hawk, but all of a sudden, if its my health thats affected, if I'm not going to die instantly from people's mistakes, all of a sudden its terrible and rude to keep myself and my family healthy?
Trust me, no one comes to my house unaware that we're completely gluten free and that I'm makpid on not getting things cross contaminated. Everyone is aware of that. And on top of that, I make a mention of it at the beginning of the meal as a reminder, but in case someone slips up, I'm not upset at them, I just give them a reminder, because I understand, its easy to forget when its so different than how you usually live, nothing to be embarrassed about.

Imamothers, I have an idea for you-
How about- if you have no experience with a certain topic, don't judge other people who ARE living with that situation for how they deal with it. Al tadin es chavercha ad shetagiya limkomo. Because its very possible that if you were in the same situation, you'd do exactly the same thing.
And how about- if at the beginning of a post, its written who the post is addressing (especially if its in a subcategory that doesn't apply to you), and it isn't addressing you, stay out of it, and keep your opinions to yourself.

Sorry, this just had to be said.

P.S. I just have to share that quite a few people living either with celiac or gluten sensitivity or other severe allergies have pmed me or emailed me to tell me that they thought the majority of you were being nasty for no reason.

shalhevet

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 6:48 am

Seraph wrote:

because no one seems willing to see things from another person's point of view

I think you having a more open mind to people's suggestions on this thread would have given you good solutions. I'm sure one of the solutions here suits you.

Quote:

In my original post I made it quite clear that I was addressing people with CELIAC or who are otherwise very gluten sensitive:
"Anyhow, those of you were are sensitive to gluten, specifically, because you can't just not serve challah at the shabbos meal, what do you do about guests and making sure food doesn't get cross contaminated?"

Firstly, I am sure I am not the only poster who often doesn't even notice which section a particular thread is in. And it really wasn't "quite clear" (and your schoolmarmy language here isn't nice either). I don't think most people read a post as if it is Toras Moshe emes and analyse every word. When people have had such requests in the past they have usually begun their post with a request like that in block and/or bolded letters to be sure people pay attention.

You forget that we all have experience in not getting bread (or matza for those very strict on gebrukts) crumbs into places we don't want them, in table manners, in chinuch, in how to speak to guests and plenty of other issues which were main/ side points of the thread.

Anyone who posts should be willing to read answers they do/ do not agree with, and not take them as personal insults. People here bother to answer because they want to help, whether or not you like the help you get. No one is forcing you or the OP of any thread to take the advice given - you can accept it, reject it, laugh about it, or investigate it further if you have an open mind.

At least no one told you to get divorced. Rolling Eyes

Raisin

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 7:14 am

I think you have stuck in your head that a meal HAS to begin with dips and challa. While this is delicious and the norm in Israel, no reason you can not have a yummy meal without them. Think of different starters. Fish and some salads, stuffed veggies, etc. (you're a creative cook Smile

)

Serve challa or whatever, sweep the table down or change cloths. (put 2 tablecloths on) and then serve the rest of the food.

m in Israel

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 7:46 am

Seraph wrote:

Or, you, with no personal experience in this area, criticize me for watching what is on the table to make sure I don't get sick from people's mistakes. Trust me, if it were someone non jewish cooking in your kitchen, you would watch them "like a hawk" to make sure they didn't treif up your kitchen accidentally, not because they are being malicious or uncaring, but because if someone isn't a kosher keeper, they may not be aware and might inadvertantly do something that treifs up your kitchen, and you need to be aware which foods and which pots and pans might be problematic. So, when its kashrus, its ok to watch like a hawk, but all of a sudden, if its my health thats affected, if I'm not going to die instantly from people's mistakes, all of a sudden its terrible and rude to keep myself and my family healthy?
.

I don't think the problem is "watching like a hawk" -- it is making it so clear that you are, and reacting in public when you catch a mistake. None of us are there with you -- we are basing it on your description (and truth be told, your husband, who IS there seems to have the same opinion as the vast majority of posters.

Actually, I thought of exactly the kashrus example when I read the debate on whether to say something or not. When I lived in the U.S. and worked in the secular workplace, we had this type of issue a number of times by "holiday parties" or "goodbye parties". The place I worked had a significant minority of frum Jews, and whenever they had a party that we needed to attend (I.e. it was during the workday or as part of a meeting), the organizers would very considerately make sure we had a "Kosher food table". We had to be very careful not to offend anyone (it was a sensitive situation to begin with, because unfortunately there were many not-frum Jews there as well who felt uncomfortable with the frum needs), but we also needed to make sure that there we didn't eat anything that was "cross contaminated". (I am talking real treif here -- deli sandwiches or the like). We always made sure that one of the frum people stood by the table and "watched it like a hawk" at all times -- but it was done in a way that was completely subtle. An announcement was made at the beginning that nothing from the regular tables should be brought to the kosher tables. After that, we said nothing out loud. When the "watcher" would see someone help themselves to something from our table using their own silverware, or touch their treif plate with the serving spoon, we would quietly spread the word among the frum -- "don't take anything from that vegetable platter anymore" or "the tuna wraps are now off limits". No one else knew, and we made do with everything else. We would never have dreamed of saying "wait, don't use that spoon" or anything like that, as it would make the person extremely uncomfortable.

My point is that I don't think anyone disagrees that you should be watching out for your family, and doing what you can to keep as much of the food as possible edible. But once you've taken the necessary precautions, keep your eyes open and if mistakes happen quietly remove/ throw out that food as necessary without causing guests to feel that they were "caught" and have now "contaminated" your meal. Protecting your family does not automatically require making your guests uncomfortable, and if the stress of balancing the two is too much, there is nothing wrong with stopping to host guests for meals and doing your Chessed in other arenas. (Actually, my favorite piece of advice in this whole thread was to find guests with similar dietary needs. That is probably TRUE hachnasos orchim as they likely have a very hard time finding appropriate meals.)

smss

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 7:47 am

shalhevet wrote:

Anyone who posts should be willing to read answers they do/ do not agree with, and not take them as personal insults. People here bother to answer because they want to help, whether or not you like the help you get. No one is forcing you or the OP of any thread to take the advice given - you can accept it, reject it, laugh about it, or investigate it further if you have an open mind.

I dunno.

Some of the posts I read in this thread, I couldn't believe people were telling Seraph SHE was the one being rude. (I'm not talking about yours Shalhevet.) There's a way to say things and I am not so sure everyone who posted just "wanted to help." If you really want to help, there's no reason you can't disagree with someone, tell them what you think, and still be nice about it.

I think Seraph is right that when people can hide behind being anonymous, they're not as careful with how something comes out sounding. It's a problem...

mummiedearest

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 8:44 am

seraph, I see it from both sides. yes, there are some rather unhelpful, perhaps insulting posts on this thread. I see your frustration and your "watching like a hawk" as normal. I do the same. the thing is, I do it with family, mostly. if I have guests, I try to arrange the table so I can relax about it. those who are telling you you were rude to point things out do have a point. I'm not saying you went crazy and started screaming. I suspect you do what I used to do: remind your guests politely to be careful with the serving spoons. I stopped doing that for a good reason. if you tell this to a guest after they've already messed up your food for you, they will feel HORRIBLE for the rest of the day. they'll either think they've deprived you of your meal, or that they may have inadvertently poisoned you by contaminating other dishes unbeknownst to you. so while your reasons are 100% legit, you have to realize the effect your calm words have on a caring guest.

there are many good solutions on this thread, and I think you'd be calmer if you picked one good one and stuck to it. I hope you can find a way to have shabbos guests in a more relaxed manner. you sound like a caring hostess, and I hope you can continue to enjoy hachnosas orchim.

saw50st8

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 9:09 am

smss wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I was pretty horrified by many responses and I'm not very sensitive.

Seraph

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 9:38 am

mummiedearest, thank you for getting what I mean. I agree with everyone that putting things out in a way that cross contamination is even possible and then reminding people not to or pointing things our after they already happened is far from ideal. which is why I started this thread in the first place, because I knew it was possible to have guests and still not get food contaminated.I didn't want to just not have guests, as my dh suggested, but rather have guests in a way that works for everyone. thank you to those of you who gave suggestions how to do it.
what I don't appreciate is condescension, snide remarks, insinuations or being directly told that I'm acting as if I had ocd, was buying into fads, regularly humilite guests, etc. because those of you not in the situation can never understand, which is why I directed this post to those in my situation. (maybe it WOULD be a good idea to see where something is posted before responding)

lamplighter

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 10:21 am

I'm sorry if I've hurt you. I was just getting frustrated that the thread was going on and on when your question was already answered, I didn't understand what else people could help you with.
Often I find that when we post a query, people comment on another point or sentence in the post as opposed to the question. You didn't ask about reprimanding guests, you asked about a solution for the challah, but because the idea was included (your DH's opinion of not having guests) people took you to task on that aspect. It might not be what you asked about, but it's bound to happen on the internet. No need for nastiness though, and I hope I wasn't nasty.
I mentioned in the beginning of this post and I think this is a perfect example of a post that went on and on beyond the question and answer, leaving room for all kinds of personal commentary on your life etc.

bnm

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 10:26 am

I'm allergic to fish. I don't cook fish at home, I buy ready made or my mother cooks some extras for me. I don't serve the fish either, whenever we have guest my husband serves them. I do know that some people 'double dip' with the dips and stuff so whenever we have guest I give them their own little bowls of dip and throw out their leftovers since I don't want to risk cross contamination. when I eat at my inlaws I help my mil serve and make sure there are 2 bowls of everything and that I serve myself before it gets contaminated. people who don't suffer from actual allergies do not usually understand.

Seraph

Tue, Jul 03 2012, 6:17 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Seraph wrote:

That is when there is a kosher table, etc... But what if a person was cooking in your kosher kitchen, and about to treif up your pots and pans, or cooking utensils? Would you still say nothing, even if it meant preventing stuff from getting treifed up?

Quote:

My point is that I don't think anyone disagrees that you should be watching out for your family, and doing what you can to keep as much of the food as possible edible. But once you've taken the necessary precautions, keep your eyes open and if mistakes happen quietly remove/ throw out that food as necessary without causing guests to feel that they were "caught" and have now "contaminated" your meal. Protecting your family does not automatically require making your guests uncomfortable, and if the stress of balancing the two is too much, there is nothing wrong with stopping to host guests for meals and doing your Chessed in other arenas. (Actually, my favorite piece of advice in this whole thread was to find guests with similar dietary needs. That is probably TRUE hachnasos orchim as they likely have a very hard time finding appropriate meals.)

I do plan on calling sems and yeshivos and letting them know that I can host people who need to be gluten free.

See the thing that I don't know if people understand, why I don't just throw out everything at the end of the course and assume it was all contaminated (instead of ensuring it doesn't get contaminated) is that if you're not eating challah, and you're big eaters, you go through a lot of food. And maybe I have a problem, but I am not always able to gauge how much food we'll need for shabbos. (Since my husband has gone gluten free and no longer fills up on challah, I underestimate often how much food we'll need.)
And I've RUN OUT OF FOOD on shabbos.
Because of our dietary restrictions and frugality, etc... we don't have any processed, ready made food in the house almost ever.
If it were during the week, I would just cook more food, but since it was shabbos, we ran out of food completely. As in had nothing I could serve. As in, we finished shaleshudes and were still very hungry.
So yes, on shabbos, food is valuable. I don't want to throw it out because just in case I need it, just in case I run out of food.

shalhevet

Wed, Jul 04 2012, 3:25 am

Quote:

See the thing that I don't know if people understand, why I don't just throw out everything at the end of the course and assume it was all contaminated (instead of ensuring it doesn't get contaminated) is that if you're not eating challah, and you're big eaters, you go through a lot of food. And maybe I have a problem, but I am not always able to gauge how much food we'll need for shabbos. (Since my husband has gone gluten free and no longer fills up on challah, I underestimate often how much food we'll need.)
And I've RUN OUT OF FOOD on shabbos.
Because of our dietary restrictions and frugality, etc... we don't have any processed, ready made food in the house almost ever.
If it were during the week, I would just cook more food, but since it was shabbos, we ran out of food completely. As in had nothing I could serve. As in, we finished shaleshudes and were still very hungry.
So yes, on shabbos, food is valuable. I don't want to throw it out because just in case I need it, just in case I run out of food.

So, again, you need to look for a practical back-up plan. Since this has happened before, you need to be prepared. Have cooked food in the freezer - like cooked salads (eggplant, matboucha, whole chickpeas etc.), or cooked chicken or fish or whatever you eat, that you can quickly defrost (check out the halachas of what can be defrosted on the platta). Extra fruit/ veggies which can be eaten raw, in the fridge.

Again, put out small quantities of dips (or other dishes) and refill in (new bowls if needed) as needed.

If this has happened more than once, maybe you are just underestimating how much food you need for a Shabbos. Or maybe it was during one of your challenges to spend little or nothing. And if you can't afford the extra - just don't invite guests.

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Jul 04 2012, 3:37 am

I'm not sure I recall what your response was to the suggestion that you let them eat a piece of challah or pita, roll up the plastic, set the table and bring out the dips with gluten-free things to dip with...

freidasima

Wed, Jul 04 2012, 4:58 am

For those people who are gluten free and can eat brown rice, that's a cooked staple to keep around cold in the fridge. To heat up only what one thinks one will use but to have extra. Hard boiled eggs are another good staple to keep around. I for example only eat the whites but there are always takers for the yolks here.

Fresh fruit and veg can last a few days, if one does shopping for it on thursday one can buy a quantity to keep oneself through tuesday and if it gets used up on shabbos to just go sunday or monday and buy more instead of waiting until Tuesday.

the idea is to take out small portions but have more in the fridge that can be used for Sunday's meal. It doesn't have to be "main dish". I too, in the far past have run out of "main dish" when we had unexpected guests. But even when one eats no processed foods one can have cooked rice, cooked eggs and raw fruits and veg around and although it isn't elegant, one can dine on that later if the mains get used up unexpectedly.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 04 2012, 5:07 am

Could you make extra food for Shabbos, and eat it during the week if it's left over? Not expensive stuff like chicken, but things like extra potatoes or majdara or soup that you would have eaten during the week anyway.

Then if you see there's not enough, at least you won't go hungry. Bonus: no need to cook on Sunday.

I think the suggestion of having challah first, then completely switching the table over to gluten free sounds like a good one. It sounds like a bit of a pain but things would probably be much more relaxed if there was no possibility of the main course being glutenated. And telling your guests in advance that you'll be doing that would probably help them understand how serious the issue is, without you needing to give repeated warnings that might embarrass them.

Raisin

Wed, Jul 04 2012, 6:07 am

I often make large batches of food for shabbos (eg kugel, soup) and then freeze leftovers for another week.

allrgymama

Wed, Jul 04 2012, 8:02 am

I started posting a reply the other day and my phone ate it. Sorry for the seeming lack of support.

I have been horrified by the reactions to this post. It is in the Children's Health/ Allergy forum on the site -- which everyone who is linking to this from the Home Page can see. In the last couple of years on this site, I have only ONE gone to comment on a post without realizing the specialized forum it was in and can admit that I made an idiot of myself.

(The thread was about Infertility and the the thread title was DON'T GO TO AN OB-GYN which I reacted to, immediately, with something about how terrible it is to tell people not to go to an OB.)

Those of you who do not live with specialized diets, cannot understand what this is about. Those of you who are living with specialized diets, but not allergies, do not understand what this is about. Exposure to gluten, for someone who has celiac, causes permanent damage to that person's insides. Permanent. No matter how small the exposure is.

When DD was allergic to eggs, we did not serve egg salad. We did not make matzo balls. We made an egg-free potato kugel. We did wash, but did not give her challah because she was still a toddler. Today anyway, I make a home-made egg-free challah because that is what we've found our family likes.

And when other children come into my house, should they be eating milichigs -- I will walk with them myself to the bathroom and make sure they wash their hands with soap and warm water so that DD will not have a reaction from a contaminated toy.

These are REAL issues. One allergy mom whose blog I read wrote about her allergic son going to play in someone's house. They took out the Halloween costumes to play dress-up (this was almost a full year since) and her son had a horrible reaction requiring an Epi-Pen because the costume was not completely clean.

Yes, there are some wonderful suggestions here for what Seraph can do to try to accommodate both herself and non-GF members of her Shabbos table. But no Shabbos meal is fun when constantly on guard for people contaminating your food. And the frustration of making people aware that they need to be careful -- especially grown-ups -- and then having them forget or disregard the warning to be careful is so understandable and something I relate to strongly.

It is hard enough, when accommodating a specialized diet, to go out of your house and know that people can't accommodate you. When you go to a Shvuous meal and the only thing for your daughter to eat is challah. Or a pizza Chanakuh party and the only thing she can eat is french fries (maybe; for my daughter it is okay, for others it won't be). Or, heck, going to your own sister's wedding (when DD was still allergic to nuts and eggs) and having to be busy with preparing something to bring along with you so that she wouldn't starve. My teenage cousin with celiac sat at that same wedding and ate nothing because nothing was safe.

I would cry if my own house wasn't safe, too...

Sereph's question was very clear: Anyhow, those of you were are sensitive to gluten, specifically, because you can't just not serve challah at the shabbos meal, what do you do about guests and making sure food doesn't get cross contaminated?

If your comment did not answer this question, you probably ought to apologize to her.

Seraph

Wed, Jul 04 2012, 9:52 am

YESHASettler wrote:

My response was its a good idea, and thats what I plan on doing in the future.

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