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-> Parenting our children
Maya
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 Tue, Aug 21 2012, 10:56 am
| yksraya wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
no it's not an easy decision. especially if you live in an area where BC is not so commonly used and everyone around you has allot of kids very close apart. |
So caving to peer pressure is more important than raising healthy kids? |
kids can be healthy even if they are from larger families. Of course if someone feels she's too overwhelmed she should stop and not risk it. |
Like I said above, there are no rules in life. I just took issue with your stating that peer pressure may play a bigger factor in childbearing than ability or capability. That's just stupid.
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EvenI
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 10:57 am
| Maya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
Unhealthy, badly adjusted religious-or-not kids cannot grow up in homes with well meaning parents who limit family size to focus on bringing up their kids well? If you aren't required to make such cheshbonos, I don't see holding back on numbers as a valuable or relevant hishtadlus. |
There are no rules in life; anything can happen to anyone. But I would think that trying your best would take some planning and evaluating, and yes, cheshbonos. Holding back on numbers can make it or break it for many people. Is that so hard to understand? |
As a hava amina, it's not so hard to understand. As a response to an opposite suggestion with a Torah source, it makes no sense. Admittedly, I don't have a direct quote here on the peirush, and I'm a bit hazy on it and I don't have time to look it up, but the principle of what you're saying seems to be "it doesn't matter what Shlomo HaMelech has to say on the subject, I feel safer with my common sense, thank you very much."
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black sheep
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 10:59 am
you ask "why have more?" I ask why did you even have three? and also, why wouldn't you have more?
the reason I "had more" is because I wanted to. there is your answer. it sounds like you don't want to. we aren't the same.
why assume that everyone has to have large families because it is such a bracha, or that everyone has to have small families because it is so difficult to raise good children, or that any rule has to apply across the board?
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ora_43
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:01 am
| yksraya wrote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
It's also not clear how much "focus" helps kids. Do kids become better people because their parents had more time for them, alone? I think only to a certain point. Better to have some individual attention than none (I'm not advocating having as many babies as biologically possible with no thought to their emotional needs), but a child growing up with four siblings isn't getting a mere 1/5 the chinuch and attention of an only child. It could be that, on the contrary, they're getting something from their siblings that their parents couldn't have given them.
Which reminds me of another point I think is important. OP, the amount and type of attention your kids need will change, a lot. When you have a few toddlers it can be hard to imagine caring for more than 2-3 kids, but when they're a bit older, they don't need constant care. They need attention, but that can mean talking to you while you make dinner, or talking while making dinner with you. Unlike toddlers they not only don't need your attention every waking hour, they don't even normally want it.
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yksraya
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:03 am
| Maya wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
no it's not an easy decision. especially if you live in an area where BC is not so commonly used and everyone around you has allot of kids very close apart. |
So caving to peer pressure is more important than raising healthy kids? |
kids can be healthy even if they are from larger families. Of course if someone feels she's too overwhelmed she should stop and not risk it. |
Like I said above, there are no rules in life. I just took issue with your stating that peer pressure may play a bigger factor in childbearing than ability or capability. That's just stupid. |
I did not say it play's a bigger factor but perhaps this is why op needs courage that she does the right thing.
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EvenI
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:10 am
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Another angle on all this: we often get to a point in life or in a given project (maybe particularly in this generation) when we say "it's really difficult. Why am I doing this if it's so difficult" and yet "Odom LeOmol Yulad" we were created for hard work. It's supposed to be hard. We have the opposite idea ingrained within us and we expect, based on culture or plain attachment to out gashmi component, that we are not supposed to have it so hard.
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yksraya
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:11 am
| EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
Unhealthy, badly adjusted religious-or-not kids cannot grow up in homes with well meaning parents who limit family size to focus on bringing up their kids well? If you aren't required to make such cheshbonos, I don't see holding back on numbers as a valuable or relevant hishtadlus. |
There are no rules in life; anything can happen to anyone. But I would think that trying your best would take some planning and evaluating, and yes, cheshbonos. Holding back on numbers can make it or break it for many people. Is that so hard to understand? |
As a hava amina, it's not so hard to understand. As a response to an opposite suggestion with a Torah source, it makes no sense. Admittedly, I don't have a direct quote here on the peirush, and I'm a bit hazy on it and I don't have time to look it up, but the principle of what you're saying seems to be "it doesn't matter what Shlomo HaMelech has to say on the subject, I feel safer with my common sense, thank you very much." |
so should we all have like 20 kids and leave it up to hashem that they grow up healthy? life is not black or white. if we, young ladies feel it's hard to raise our kids to be torah true jews in our day and age we should not be viewed as not considering what shlomo hemelech or other gedolim have said. we each have the right to make our choices and not be judged by them.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:15 am
| ora_43 wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
It's also not clear how much "focus" helps kids. Do kids become better people because their parents had more time for them, alone? I think only to a certain point. Better to have some individual attention than none (I'm not advocating having as many babies as biologically possible with no thought to their emotional needs), but a child growing up with four siblings isn't getting a mere 1/5 the chinuch and attention of an only child. It could be that, on the contrary, they're getting something from their siblings that their parents couldn't have given them.
Which reminds me of another point I think is important. OP, the amount and type of attention your kids need will change, a lot. When you have a few toddlers it can be hard to imagine caring for more than 2-3 kids, but when they're a bit older, they don't need constant care. They need attention, but that can mean talking to you while you make dinner, or talking while making dinner with you. Unlike toddlers they not only don't need your attention every waking hour, they don't even normally want it. |
op here, thank you for that paragraph ora, it's not that I don't want, it's that I cannot imagine being able to care care of more (that prob counts as overwhelmed, no?). & black sheep, your post was very hurtful & judgmental.
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EvenI
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:17 am
| yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
Unhealthy, badly adjusted religious-or-not kids cannot grow up in homes with well meaning parents who limit family size to focus on bringing up their kids well? If you aren't required to make such cheshbonos, I don't see holding back on numbers as a valuable or relevant hishtadlus. |
There are no rules in life; anything can happen to anyone. But I would think that trying your best would take some planning and evaluating, and yes, cheshbonos. Holding back on numbers can make it or break it for many people. Is that so hard to understand? |
As a hava amina, it's not so hard to understand. As a response to an opposite suggestion with a Torah source, it makes no sense. Admittedly, I don't have a direct quote here on the peirush, and I'm a bit hazy on it and I don't have time to look it up, but the principle of what you're saying seems to be "it doesn't matter what Shlomo HaMelech has to say on the subject, I feel safer with my common sense, thank you very much." |
so should we all have like 20 kids and leave it up to hashem that they grow up healthy? life is not black or white. if we, young ladies feel it's hard to raise our kids to be torah true jews in our day and age we should not be viewed as not considering what shlomo hemelech or other gedolim have said. we each have the right to make our choices and not be judged by them. |
First, remember we were talking specifically about whether they grow up as Torah Jews and whether it is out job to limit numbers based on whether we think we can raise them as such. Second, we are not considering people judging each other for our choices. Rather, we are considering the rights and wrongs of an internal decision making process we may be making. Third, how many people would be having 20 kids if they simply took this one issue out of the equation, the issue of whether we should hold back from having kids based on fear of them going OTD because of divided parental attention? Aren't there plenty of other aspects that affect the complexity of family size besides that? Personally, I will be shocked if I end up with 20 kids and it has nothing to do with this cheshbon.
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amother
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:18 am
| EvenI wrote: | | Another angle on all this: we often get to a point in life or in a given project (maybe particularly in this generation) when we say "it's really difficult. Why am I doing this if it's so difficult" and yet "Odom LeOmol Yulad" we were created for hard work. It's supposed to be hard. We have the opposite idea ingrained within us and we expect, based on culture or plain attachment to out gashmi component, that we are not supposed to have it so hard. |
that is the key line! can someone give me a good answer to tell myself when it gets overwhelming. (again I loooove my kds, they are hilarious & adorable & each show amazing traits, but they are still super energetic kids who need a lot more than Mommy can give 'em.
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EvenI
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:19 am
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Was it Chizkiyahu who decided not to have children at all because of a navua that said his descendants would be reshaim? We learn that this was the wrong cheshbon.
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syrima
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:20 am
One day when I meet Shlomo Hamelech I really want to ask him, "So is this what you had in mind? Or were you just talking about the best way to plant a field? " 
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yksraya
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:22 am
| amother wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Another angle on all this: we often get to a point in life or in a given project (maybe particularly in this generation) when we say "it's really difficult. Why am I doing this if it's so difficult" and yet "Odom LeOmol Yulad" we were created for hard work. It's supposed to be hard. We have the opposite idea ingrained within us and we expect, based on culture or plain attachment to out gashmi component, that we are not supposed to have it so hard. |
that is the key line! can someone give me a good answer to tell myself when it gets overwhelming. (again I loooove my kds, they are hilarious & adorable & each show amazing traits, but they are still super energetic kids who need a lot more than Mommy can give 'em. |
so you obviously need a little break and might also benefit from help(cleaning help/mothers helper).
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yksraya
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:29 am
| EvenI wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
Unhealthy, badly adjusted religious-or-not kids cannot grow up in homes with well meaning parents who limit family size to focus on bringing up their kids well? If you aren't required to make such cheshbonos, I don't see holding back on numbers as a valuable or relevant hishtadlus. |
There are no rules in life; anything can happen to anyone. But I would think that trying your best would take some planning and evaluating, and yes, cheshbonos. Holding back on numbers can make it or break it for many people. Is that so hard to understand? |
As a hava amina, it's not so hard to understand. As a response to an opposite suggestion with a Torah source, it makes no sense. Admittedly, I don't have a direct quote here on the peirush, and I'm a bit hazy on it and I don't have time to look it up, but the principle of what you're saying seems to be "it doesn't matter what Shlomo HaMelech has to say on the subject, I feel safer with my common sense, thank you very much." |
so should we all have like 20 kids and leave it up to hashem that they grow up healthy? life is not black or white. if we, young ladies feel it's hard to raise our kids to be torah true jews in our day and age we should not be viewed as not considering what shlomo hemelech or other gedolim have said. we each have the right to make our choices and not be judged by them. |
First, remember we were talking specifically about whether they grow up as Torah Jews and whether it is out job to limit numbers based on whether we think we can raise them as such. Second, we are not considering people judging each other for our choices. Rather, we are considering the rights and wrongs of an internal decision making process we may be making. Third, how many people would be having 20 kids if they simply took this one issue out of the equation, the issue of whether we should hold back from having kids based on fear of them going OTD because of divided parental attention? Aren't there plenty of other aspects that affect the complexity of family size besides that? Personally, I will be shocked if I end up with 20 kids and it has nothing to do with this cheshbon. |
first you'll have to answer me why most kids that go OTD do so? perhaps their parents chose to have big families because it's meant for us to work hard. the parents became emotional racks and physically abused their kids out of frustration or just didn't teach the kids proper skills, middos etc.. and kids lacked attention and supervision.
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ora_43
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:34 am
| saw50st8 wrote: | | Having a child go otd does not mean your child is a failure. |
I think maybe what people meant is, a parent has a mitzva to do more than just have children. Having children in Judaism isn't just literally physically birthing them, it's also raising them, and teaching them right from wrong.
If a person can't do that, that's a legitimate reason to use birth control.
It's not about the kids' choices, though, but about the parents' obligations. IE having kids if you know through prophecy that they won't keep Torah despite your best efforts = OK, having kids if you know you won't have the time or energy to teach them to do mitzvot = quite possibly a problem.
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EvenI
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:36 am
| yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
Unhealthy, badly adjusted religious-or-not kids cannot grow up in homes with well meaning parents who limit family size to focus on bringing up their kids well? If you aren't required to make such cheshbonos, I don't see holding back on numbers as a valuable or relevant hishtadlus. |
There are no rules in life; anything can happen to anyone. But I would think that trying your best would take some planning and evaluating, and yes, cheshbonos. Holding back on numbers can make it or break it for many people. Is that so hard to understand? |
As a hava amina, it's not so hard to understand. As a response to an opposite suggestion with a Torah source, it makes no sense. Admittedly, I don't have a direct quote here on the peirush, and I'm a bit hazy on it and I don't have time to look it up, but the principle of what you're saying seems to be "it doesn't matter what Shlomo HaMelech has to say on the subject, I feel safer with my common sense, thank you very much." |
so should we all have like 20 kids and leave it up to hashem that they grow up healthy? life is not black or white. if we, young ladies feel it's hard to raise our kids to be torah true jews in our day and age we should not be viewed as not considering what shlomo hemelech or other gedolim have said. we each have the right to make our choices and not be judged by them. |
First, remember we were talking specifically about whether they grow up as Torah Jews and whether it is out job to limit numbers based on whether we think we can raise them as such. Second, we are not considering people judging each other for our choices. Rather, we are considering the rights and wrongs of an internal decision making process we may be making. Third, how many people would be having 20 kids if they simply took this one issue out of the equation, the issue of whether we should hold back from having kids based on fear of them going OTD because of divided parental attention? Aren't there plenty of other aspects that affect the complexity of family size besides that? Personally, I will be shocked if I end up with 20 kids and it has nothing to do with this cheshbon. |
first you'll have to answer me why most kids that go OTD do so? perhaps their parents chose to have big families because it's meant for us to work hard. the parents became emotional racks and physically abused their kids out of frustration or just didn't teach the kids proper skills, middos etc.. and kids lacked attention and supervision. |
I think the burden of proof is the other way round, both because you are quite unscientifically hypothesizing a causal link between a whole series of issues and the phenomenon of OTD kids and because I have been arguing against making such cheshbonos for the purposes of deciding when and how to procreate, so that would make even apparently provable causality irrelevant.
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yksraya
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 11:57 am
| EvenI wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
Unhealthy, badly adjusted religious-or-not kids cannot grow up in homes with well meaning parents who limit family size to focus on bringing up their kids well? If you aren't required to make such cheshbonos, I don't see holding back on numbers as a valuable or relevant hishtadlus. |
There are no rules in life; anything can happen to anyone. But I would think that trying your best would take some planning and evaluating, and yes, cheshbonos. Holding back on numbers can make it or break it for many people. Is that so hard to understand? |
As a hava amina, it's not so hard to understand. As a response to an opposite suggestion with a Torah source, it makes no sense. Admittedly, I don't have a direct quote here on the peirush, and I'm a bit hazy on it and I don't have time to look it up, but the principle of what you're saying seems to be "it doesn't matter what Shlomo HaMelech has to say on the subject, I feel safer with my common sense, thank you very much." |
so should we all have like 20 kids and leave it up to hashem that they grow up healthy? life is not black or white. if we, young ladies feel it's hard to raise our kids to be torah true jews in our day and age we should not be viewed as not considering what shlomo hemelech or other gedolim have said. we each have the right to make our choices and not be judged by them. |
First, remember we were talking specifically about whether they grow up as Torah Jews and whether it is out job to limit numbers based on whether we think we can raise them as such. Second, we are not considering people judging each other for our choices. Rather, we are considering the rights and wrongs of an internal decision making process we may be making. Third, how many people would be having 20 kids if they simply took this one issue out of the equation, the issue of whether we should hold back from having kids based on fear of them going OTD because of divided parental attention? Aren't there plenty of other aspects that affect the complexity of family size besides that? Personally, I will be shocked if I end up with 20 kids and it has nothing to do with this cheshbon. |
first you'll have to answer me why most kids that go OTD do so? perhaps their parents chose to have big families because it's meant for us to work hard. the parents became emotional racks and physically abused their kids out of frustration or just didn't teach the kids proper skills, middos etc.. and kids lacked attention and supervision. |
I think the burden of proof is the other way round, both because you are quite unscientifically hypothesizing a causal link between a whole series of issues and the phenomenon of OTD kids and because I have been arguing against making such cheshbonos for the purposes of deciding when and how to procreate, so that would make even apparently provable causality irrelevant. |
so are you trying to say we should not make cheshbonos and then say we cannot be held responsible for any mistakes we do due to our overwhelmed state as very busy mothers because it's meant for us to work hard?
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EvenI
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 12:12 pm
| yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | yksraya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | EvenI wrote: | | Maya wrote: | | Quote: | | nowadays, when we see so many kids going OTD and so many kids growing up with confusion it's hard to decide if it's better to have less kids and focus our energies on them or to have more kids and hope and pray for their success. |
Is it really that difficult to decide? Shouldn't people focus their energies on whatever amount of kids they can handle instead of just piling it on and "hoping for the best"? The latter doesn't seem like a very legitimate way of ensuring you raise healthy, well-adjusted, religious kids. |
Unhealthy, badly adjusted religious-or-not kids cannot grow up in homes with well meaning parents who limit family size to focus on bringing up their kids well? If you aren't required to make such cheshbonos, I don't see holding back on numbers as a valuable or relevant hishtadlus. |
There are no rules in life; anything can happen to anyone. But I would think that trying your best would take some planning and evaluating, and yes, cheshbonos. Holding back on numbers can make it or break it for many people. Is that so hard to understand? |
As a hava amina, it's not so hard to understand. As a response to an opposite suggestion with a Torah source, it makes no sense. Admittedly, I don't have a direct quote here on the peirush, and I'm a bit hazy on it and I don't have time to look it up, but the principle of what you're saying seems to be "it doesn't matter what Shlomo HaMelech has to say on the subject, I feel safer with my common sense, thank you very much." |
so should we all have like 20 kids and leave it up to hashem that they grow up healthy? life is not black or white. if we, young ladies feel it's hard to raise our kids to be torah true jews in our day and age we should not be viewed as not considering what shlomo hemelech or other gedolim have said. we each have the right to make our choices and not be judged by them. |
First, remember we were talking specifically about whether they grow up as Torah Jews and whether it is out job to limit numbers based on whether we think we can raise them as such. Second, we are not considering people judging each other for our choices. Rather, we are considering the rights and wrongs of an internal decision making process we may be making. Third, how many people would be having 20 kids if they simply took this one issue out of the equation, the issue of whether we should hold back from having kids based on fear of them going OTD because of divided parental attention? Aren't there plenty of other aspects that affect the complexity of family size besides that? Personally, I will be shocked if I end up with 20 kids and it has nothing to do with this cheshbon. |
first you'll have to answer me why most kids that go OTD do so? perhaps their parents chose to have big families because it's meant for us to work hard. the parents became emotional racks and physically abused their kids out of frustration or just didn't teach the kids proper skills, middos etc.. and kids lacked attention and supervision. |
I think the burden of proof is the other way round, both because you are quite unscientifically hypothesizing a causal link between a whole series of issues and the phenomenon of OTD kids and because I have been arguing against making such cheshbonos for the purposes of deciding when and how to procreate, so that would make even apparently provable causality irrelevant. |
so are you trying to say we should not make cheshbonos and then say we cannot be held responsible for any mistakes we do due to our overwhelmed state as very busy mothers because it's meant for us to work hard? |
No. I am only saying that I think there is established inyan that it is praiseworthy to continue to have more children after you have the basic quota and that we have no way of knowing which children out of multiple possible children will emerge with greater yiras shamayim or other accomplishments in ruchnius.
*bold added when editing, for clarity
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Ritty
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 12:43 pm
Having a lot of kids isn't a direct cause for kids going OTD. I know someone with 3 kids and 2 of them act like non jews and a very close relative of mine has kah 12 kids--and all of them are exemplary yorei shamayim.
(edited by mod to what I hope the poster meant.)
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black sheep
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Tue, Aug 21 2012, 1:44 pm
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people go off the derech for many reasons, and while poor parenting often can be a contributing factor, it certainly isn't the only factor. and more so, no one has every gone off the derech because there was just too many kids in his/her family.
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