How to make tichels look professional?

amother

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 7:21 am

Isramom8 wrote:

If it's important that clients you meet with do not make assumptions about your values, I guess if you were a man you couldn't wear a kippah either, right? Crying

And a lot of men don't. As you've said, you live in Israel. I don't. I am a stranger in a strange (albeit, wonderful, kind) land. We are in galus (both literally, as we live in 'chutz la'aretz' and figurative, as in, we live in a time of galus) and I don't pretend otherwise. We live in a world in which we (like it or not) are judged, both on how we look and how we act. And I don't think that's sad. I think it is a reminder that we need to be conscious that we are held to a higher standard, and that every interaction we have in and among the 'outside world' is an opportunity to make a kiddush Hashem.

My DH DOES wear a yarmulka to work, but is very conscious of the power it has. He represents, to many of his coworkers who may not know other religous Jews, what it means to be Jewish. And he works hard to live up to what that means, though honest, menschlech dealings etc.

Runner18

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 7:28 am

Isramom8 wrote:

If it's important that clients you meet with do not make assumptions about your values, I guess if you were a man you couldn't wear a kippah either, right? Crying

Look, ideally we should all be living in the Holy Land and not have to deal with this issue. But it's an unfortunate reality in Chutz La'Aretz. And to answer your question, yes I do know of men who have gotten heter's to not wear a Kippah at work (they'll put one on when they eat or make any brachos) because of the nature of their work or their difficulty finding a job.

Also, when people here post of past experiences, it's important to note that the CURRENT economy situation in America is really really difficult, so what may have not been an issue a few years ago could be an issue now. In other words, the competition for jobs is more fierce, there are fewer jobs being created, and Orthodox Jews have not been looking very good in the press lately. My brother works in finance, and trust me, you can't imagine what the Madoff scandal has done for our PR.

amother

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 7:44 am

OP here. Thanks for the link, isramom.

Morah, can you give more details about the type of tichels you wore in your non-Jewish workplace? Thank you!

If anyone knows where on the web to see pictures of regular women wearing tichels with business casual clothes, I'd love to see them. Thanks!

FWIW I live in a community that has a lot of African-Americans, and black women come up to me a lot and say they love my "headwrap" and ask where to buy them. There are plenty of women in my city--muslim, black, and Jewish--who do cover with scarves. I don't live in a WASPy kind of place. I definitely understand how hard it would be to wear a tichel in that sort of environment.

Orchid

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 7:49 am

You know, I stand somewhat corrected. I think OP can possibly swing it in an OT environment. The OT we brought our son to wore jeans, since she got down on the floor with my son, so this isn't exactly corporate America. I was envisioning a table-full of lawyers wearing stuffy navy suits....along with OP, wearing a Reb. Weinberg-esq snood. Nah. It didn't fit. But maybe it does for OT.

Israemom, for some reason, yarmulkas are different than snoods. When I worked in Pricewaterhousecoopers I saw dozens of yarmulkas, but *never, ever* a snood. And this, from a firm that went ridiculously out of their way to stress "diversity."

Roch, I love all your posts!

OP - hatzlacha!

Isramom8

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 7:51 am

I understand about the job competition problem. I know there can be a heter not to wear a kippa, or to wear a sheitel (which of course started as a heter). It's still sad, but yes, it's always good to look at the positive and see the good in the situations we find ourselves in.

There are those who didn't compromise two and three generations ago in America, and those who work in the White House openly as Orthodox Jews (although I don't know if they wear an obvious head covering) today.

It's correct that I can't judge not doing so, and I also can't really know what personal choices I might make under these circumstances.

melalyse

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 8:02 am

There is a big, big difference between an OT and lets say a lawyer. I only wear tichels to work as a PT, I would like to say I would as a lawyer, but all that I can say is that it has never ever been a problem. I have gotten only compliments from patients. I don't wear regular israeli tichels in a bun. I wear some of the styles from the links posted. I don't like the way that I look in a kaly, but I do wear cotton turbans from Judith de Paris. I only wear a volumizer that she sells.

causemommysaid

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 8:35 am

there is a difference between corporate america and a therepy environment(if you want to call it that)

a therepist can definately wear a nice tichel and look just fine.

a lawyer, accountant, banker, etc simply cannot. it doesnt go.

also in some offices it might be ok to wear a tichel sometimes especially if not too many clients come into the office.

another idea is to wear a nice baret. then it looks more like a fashion statement then a religious statement. but you cant do it all the time. maybe once a week or so.

also what about a hat fall? they are super lightweight and some hats/barets look very put together over it.

also for some reason yarmulkas seem to be more accepted. maybe because over the years there have been many jewish men in corporate america while women are newer to the scene. there are still lawyers who take off their yarmulkas in court though.

busydev

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 8:38 am

my sefardi friend who does work in corporate america wears tichels and looks very professional and put together. She works in a large accounting firm.

I work in a yeshiva office and wear a snood most days. but that is not corporate america.

I for sure do not think it is a problem for an OT.

Fox

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 8:53 am

I'll add that the concept of "corporate" varies a lot more than it did even 10 or 15 years ago. "Corporate" can mean anything from "bring your dog to work" to 1980s-style women's suits (without such aggressive shoulder pads, however!).

This is one of those great occasions when I can agree with everyone. Yes, there are definitely work environments where a tichel would be problematic. This might be because of the internal corporate culture; it might be because of the clients; or it might be because the boss is an idiot.

There are plenty of lawyers and accountants whose work involves little in-person client contact, and they could presumably work in their bathrobes, let alone a tichel. There are OTs, PTs, STs, and every other kind of "Ts" who work for high-end rehab centers or as consultants, and they are often expected to look more traditionally business-like than someone in the same occupation working, say, at a school or providing in-home therapy.

Ultimately, you have to evaluate your workplace, evaluate how successful people in your field dress, and evaluate the degree to which you can pull off various options. It has less to do with the actual occupation than it does the work environment and culture of the organization.

If you work in an environment where the bosses dress somewhat casually or, more commonly for women, in a funky, artistic style, then I'd definitely try a nice tichel-type headcovering on a day when you know things will be a little more relaxed. You can gauge everyone's reaction and decide whether to continue to wear it on a regular basis.

melalyse

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 9:05 am

amother wrote:

Melalyse, what's the difference between the Judith de Paris turban and Kaly? I want to order one and don't know which to pick. How does the turban tie? Does it have more fabric than the Kaly?
TIA

Judith de paris has a tutorial on her website how to tie a turban. There might be a video on the kaly also. The turban has more fabric which looks better on me. The Kaly is easier to put on. I prefer to have fabric hanging so I leave some on the bottom.

dee's mommy

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 9:06 am

I just noticed that for one of the links I posted early on, has a new website. Andrea Grinberg has made a separate blog just for tichel tying, called Wrapunzel http://wrapunzel.wordpress.com/. All of the same videos and photographs are there so enjoy.

Also, here is Mrs. Grinberg's video on this very topic we are discussing: http://wrapunzel.wordpress.com.....-say/

I think the hair covering a woman wears to work is up to her to decide. She probably knows best what is most appropriate for her own situation. Personally, I don't see why wearing a tichel or hat in any professional setting is a problem. Yes there are more casual styles that are best suited for being at home, but there are styles that are more formal. I don't perceive that Moslem women wearing a hijab is viewed on as less professional, so why should a tichel make anyone see you as less worthy?

MimiMommy

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 9:20 am

To those saying it cannot be done -
Yes, people are judgmental but if somebody is good at what she does, and covers her hair in a dignified way, I think she will not have problems getting hired.
My sister only wears tichels (not even hats) and got a job working at the front desk of a big real estate company. She was the first person people saw when they walked in the building. This was in a city with only a tiny Jewish community, In the USA. I don't wear sheitels and I don't plan to compromise my beliefs for the sake of a paycheck.

spring13

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 9:54 am

amother wrote:

It can be done, but I don't think it looks professional. And while I respect Muslim women who cover their hair, when I look at them, all I see is their head covering. I don't see the woman, the PROFESSIONAL underneath. And I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I don't think tichels have a place outside of Israel or an insular religious community (ie streets of Flatbush) if you are working for or among religious Jews, go for it. But out jn the world, no, I don't think they look professional.

That's really upsetting to hear from a frum woman. Yeah, there are environments where wearing a tichel will make you stand out so much that no one will begrudge you the sheitel instead. I wouldn't tell anyone to wear a tichel just to be a trailblazer. But let someone else be the one to have the attitude that they can only see the headcovering and not the person wearing it. That's pretty pathetic, for one of US to let that be her overriding reaction.

Runner18

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 10:36 am

MimiMommy wrote:

With aldo respect to your sister's position, I would be curious to know if the company she works at would be as comfortable with a tichel-covering woman closing million dollar deals.

I, too, hope that you never have to compromise your beliefs for the sake of a paycheck. But for many of us, wearing a sheitel is not a compromise, but is rather part of the job uniform for working in an environment that allows us to bring home an income to feed our families.

amother

Thu, Jan 10 2013, 10:39 am

roch84 wrote:

MimiMommy wrote:

Here, here!!!