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PinkFridge
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 Mon, Apr 29 2013, 10:36 am
I'm going to take this in another direction. Yes, we are child-oriented but when I was in seminary, I think this was based on Derech Hashem, I learned this incredible fundamental thought: Hashem created the world with many basic relationships - child-parent, siblings, friends, spouse, parent-child - all as ways to relate to Hashem. (True, Hashem is our Parent and Friend, but by becoming parents, we can even more greatly appreciate how Hashem parents us.)
But our primary purpose here is to emulate Hashem, who is a Giver. Some most meaningful relationships - marriage, parenthood - are shortcuts to get there. We're thrown into situations where the giving is constant. It's like a marathon.
But people can still live meaningful, productive, and joyful lives to the extent they mature, maximize the relationships they have, and work on being a giver. I think that this is something that has to be stressed at every stage in life. Of course I can't imagine the pain of someone who hasn't yet enjoyed these relationships. Leave the frum stuff behind, Hashem created us with primal desires for a spouse and children, that hopefully, once granted, we'll enjoy in the most elevated ways. But by giving our kids - and ourselves - these messages, we can give an anchor in hard times.
Oh, and the diaper formula et al converstaions (and don't get me started on diets): I LOVE to be able to discuss all sorts of interesting things with members of my table. That kind of conversation just doesn't float my boat. But I've still led a child-oriented life.
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amother
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 11:00 am
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I have never thought of this before I got married. fast forward one and a half years I sometimes do feel like a nebach:(most of my friends had a baby first year and I just dont seem to fill in. we get a lot of brochos. yesterday a friend of ours from another town I bumped into asked me "how is the little one". awwwww
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amother
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 11:05 am
| amother wrote: | | I have never thought of this before I got married. fast forward one and a half years I sometimes do feel like a nebach:(most of my friends had a baby first year and I just dont seem to fill in. we get a lot of brochos. yesterday a friend of ours from another town I bumped into asked me "how is the little one". awwwww |
Can we be friends?! I feel like such a nebach, and everyone is treating me like one two because my BIL who got married a year after us (6 months ago) is already expecting and showing 
So we've become the nebachs in a big way and if it wasn't for them I'm sure I could have got away with it for longer. But now the family is torn between feeling sorry for us and excited for them. I'm sorry, but neither of those options sound appealing 
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amother
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 11:05 am
| amother wrote: | | amother wrote: | | I have never thought of this before I got married. fast forward one and a half years I sometimes do feel like a nebach:(most of my friends had a baby first year and I just dont seem to fill in. we get a lot of brochos. yesterday a friend of ours from another town I bumped into asked me "how is the little one". awwwww |
Can we be friends?! I feel like such a nebach, and everyone is treating me like one two because my BIL who got married a year after us (6 months ago) is already expecting and showing
So we've become the nebachs in a big way and if it wasn't for them I'm sure I could have got away with it for longer. But now the family is torn between feeling sorry for us and excited for them. I'm sorry, but neither of those options sound appealing |
I meant my BIL's wife.. obviously. If he was expecting and showing it would be a funnier situation 
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Fox
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 11:46 am
The problem, IMHO, is not an issue of being "child-centered" or "not child-centered." Rather, it stems from an oversimplification of and lack of appreciation for the many roles people will play in their lives.
Re-Casting the Play of Life
Over the course of a lifetime, all of us will play a variety of roles, and we won't play those roles at precisely the same times as others in our cohort. Expecting everyone to hit various life stages at more-or-less the same chronological age works passably in elementary school but doesn't work at all for adulthood.
I believe we make a terrible mistake in allowing so many of our social interactions to be determined by the predominant activity of the cohort at any given time. The 20-somethings are expected to be obsessed with toilet training strategies and the merits of co-sleeping; the 30-somethings are expected to have the inside scoop on all the school politics and bar mitzvah preparations; the 40-somethings are expected to be consumed by making shidduchim and simchas. Naturally, there's a little overlap, but you get the drift.
As a result, women in particular don't have a tremendous number of opportunities to develop friendships with women more than a few years outside of their own ages. Given the opportunity, people have more to talk about than diapers or retirement plans, and even if their interests are not precisely matched, it reduces the alienation of others who aren't at the precise life stage as others.
No Small Roles -- Only Small Actors
We compound the error of defining ourselves by our roles when we fail to appreciate the benefits of a given role at any given time. Before I say anything about this, I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not attempting to minimize the legitimate pain of IF or extended single status. I was married for five years before my first child was born, and I would never suggest that the wait is anything less than grueling.
However, I remember clearly snuggling in my bed on Shabbos morning, enjoying the fact that I didn't have to get up to tend to children. I remember thinking, "I want so much to have a baby, but for this minute, right now, I'm going to be happy and greedily enjoy the fact that all my neighbors are dragging themselves out of bed to change diapers, etc., while I'm dozing."
Last weekend, my DDs and I went on a short road trip, and one of my DD's, who is approaching shidduch age, said, "I daven a lot that shidduchim will go easily for me, but right now I just feel so happy that I don't have to worry about getting home at a certain time to relieve a babysitter or make dinner or whatever." I was happy to hear her say that; it means that she is able to focus on the good that she has rather than the good that she might be missing.
Even if each us had 20 children, k"ah, there would eventually come a time when our roles would change. Even the most involved bubbe has a different role than the parent. It's worthwhile to learn to enjoy each stage of life even if we recognize and acknowledge the pain, too.
Motherhood versus "Nurturehood"
Finally, we make a mistake as a community in oversimplifying the role of a Jewish woman. We mistake physical childbearing for nurturing. Sure, almost everyone wants the experience of bearing her own children. But when we place so much emphasis on this, we lose opportunities to "mother" in other ways.
Mama Bear mentioned Sarah Schneirer and the Chazon Ish. While these individuals did not have their own biological children, they were hardly "childless." Rather, they found roles that allowed them to nurture Yidden in ways that biological parents are not necessarily capable.
I'm not suggesting that everyone without biological children must rise to the level of a Sarah Schneirer or Chazon Ish. Nurturing can take many forms, both big and small. The anesthesiologist who started my DD's IV line for a recent tonsil coblation made sure to use a local anesthetic first and then chatted about high school while she inserted the catheter and taped it in place. The office manager at our insurance agent's office is so caring and sympathetic that it's actually a pleasure to call.
Sure, it's great to nurture your own biological children, but there are so many ways for Jewish women to bring a little nurture to the world, it's sad that we don't recognize how much better the world is when Jewish women nurture it.
The answer is not to self-consciously avoid talk about kids around those without them. The answer is to develop a wide enough range of friends, interests, and experiences that we are capable of relating to people who are not precisely at the same stage of life -- for whatever reason!
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robynm
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:31 pm
| Fox wrote: | The problem, IMHO, is not an issue of being "child-centered" or "not child-centered." Rather, it stems from an oversimplification of and lack of appreciation for the many roles people will play in their lives.
Re-Casting the Play of Life
Over the course of a lifetime, all of us will play a variety of roles, and we won't play those roles at precisely the same times as others in our cohort. Expecting everyone to hit various life stages at more-or-less the same chronological age works passably in elementary school but doesn't work at all for adulthood.
I believe we make a terrible mistake in allowing so many of our social interactions to be determined by the predominant activity of the cohort at any given time. The 20-somethings are expected to be obsessed with toilet training strategies and the merits of co-sleeping; the 30-somethings are expected to have the inside scoop on all the school politics and bar mitzvah preparations; the 40-somethings are expected to be consumed by making shidduchim and simchas. Naturally, there's a little overlap, but you get the drift.
As a result, women in particular don't have a tremendous number of opportunities to develop friendships with women more than a few years outside of their own ages. Given the opportunity, people have more to talk about than diapers or retirement plans, and even if their interests are not precisely matched, it reduces the alienation of others who aren't at the precise life stage as others.
No Small Roles -- Only Small Actors
We compound the error of defining ourselves by our roles when we fail to appreciate the benefits of a given role at any given time. Before I say anything about this, I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not attempting to minimize the legitimate pain of IF or extended single status. I was married for five years before my first child was born, and I would never suggest that the wait is anything less than grueling.
However, I remember clearly snuggling in my bed on Shabbos morning, enjoying the fact that I didn't have to get up to tend to children. I remember thinking, "I want so much to have a baby, but for this minute, right now, I'm going to be happy and greedily enjoy the fact that all my neighbors are dragging themselves out of bed to change diapers, etc., while I'm dozing."
Last weekend, my DDs and I went on a short road trip, and one of my DD's, who is approaching shidduch age, said, "I daven a lot that shidduchim will go easily for me, but right now I just feel so happy that I don't have to worry about getting home at a certain time to relieve a babysitter or make dinner or whatever." I was happy to hear her say that; it means that she is able to focus on the good that she has rather than the good that she might be missing.
Even if each us had 20 children, k"ah, there would eventually come a time when our roles would change. Even the most involved bubbe has a different role than the parent. It's worthwhile to learn to enjoy each stage of life even if we recognize and acknowledge the pain, too.
Motherhood versus "Nurturehood"
Finally, we make a mistake as a community in oversimplifying the role of a Jewish woman. We mistake physical childbearing for nurturing. Sure, almost everyone wants the experience of bearing her own children. But when we place so much emphasis on this, we lose opportunities to "mother" in other ways.
Mama Bear mentioned Sarah Schneirer and the Chazon Ish. While these individuals did not have their own biological children, they were hardly "childless." Rather, they found roles that allowed them to nurture Yidden in ways that biological parents are not necessarily capable.
I'm not suggesting that everyone without biological children must rise to the level of a Sarah Schneirer or Chazon Ish. Nurturing can take many forms, both big and small. The anesthesiologist who started my DD's IV line for a recent tonsil coblation made sure to use a local anesthetic first and then chatted about high school while she inserted the catheter and taped it in place. The office manager at our insurance agent's office is so caring and sympathetic that it's actually a pleasure to call.
Sure, it's great to nurture your own biological children, but there are so many ways for Jewish women to bring a little nurture to the world, it's sad that we don't recognize how much better the world is when Jewish women nurture it.
The answer is not to self-consciously avoid talk about kids around those without them. The answer is to develop a wide enough range of friends, interests, and experiences that we are capable of relating to people who are not precisely at the same stage of life -- for whatever reason! |
I really appreciated and enjoyed every part of this. Thank you!
Funny that I should see this thread. I was just discussing this with a friend last night. She is 9 months pregnant with her first and has been married for 5 years. Many of our other friends are on their third kid. She is one of my closest friends. We have always had a lot in common and were there for each other through a lot of rough stuff. Now I am extremely overjoyed and I cannot wait to meet her kid. I am not jealous of her. I am truly happy for her. She knows to be sensitive to my situation. It doesn't pain me to talk about her pregnancy and stroller/carseat/diaper talk because that's not all we talk about. We talk about my "dating" life and many things that we habe in common.
Other friends are not so sensitive. And yes, it gets overwhelming that everything surrounds the kids. But I truly love all my friends kids. I go to all their birthday parties, try to make it to baseball games, and even babysit on occasion. I love them like they were my own. It would be nice if the general klal could learn to be sensitive to those not as lucky. I have learned to be happy for my friends and those around me. I look forward to the day I can actually join in the conversation.
Just saying that it's ok to be a little sensitive. It's ok to talk about something else sometimes.
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gold21
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:38 pm
| Raisin wrote: | I know plenty of non Jewish families with more then 2 kids. Maybe I live in a very child friendly society? Where I live the non Jews usually have bigger families then the Jews.
Just like in the frum world people may feel pressure to have more kids, in the secular world, there may be pressure not to have more then 2 kids. Many couple may want more children, but don't want to be looked on as weird. Or their spouse doesn't want kids. Plus, then they may not be able to afford all the stuff their friends are buying for their kids if they have a bunch.
But anyway I'm not sure what the answer to your question is. Should we all stop have kids so some people feel less pain when they are childless? I'm sure a secular woman who has just failed her 10th ivf cycle feels just as much pain as a frum woman experiencing the same thing in Boro Park.
I do think a woman should have other interests in life apart from kids. At some point the kids will grow up and need you less. |
I feel that in secular society, if a couple is married for 2 years and they don't have kids yet, they will not feel as much stress and pressure as a chassidish couple living in boro park would. Along the same line of thought, in secular society, a woman who is not married by 25 will not feel as out-of-it as a woman in our circles would feel. So, yeah, I do think its stressed much more in frum circles.
Last edited by gold21 on Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Merrymom
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:38 pm
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Is it just me that finds talk about other people's children (including relatives) exceedingly boooring? Do we not have enough interests, that we think that's all anyone has to talk about? I really don't get the question since I rarely bore anyone with my children's escapades unless it's really press worthy.
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thatgirl
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:45 pm
I really agree. I feel like theres no place for single ppl and ppl with out children. In my city most ladies hang out with their spouses or kids. Seems like ppl are too busy to even interact with friends once they get married and have kids.
I remember before I had kids wanting to get together with married friends who had kids and it just was not happening. My 2 closest friends are single and I know its painful for them since everything is all about marriage marriage marriage.
Its not just in our world though... theres just hardly me time after taking care of the kids.. however when my single friends call I make sure to have a lot to talk about besides diapers and baby issues.
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gold21
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:50 pm
| Merrymom wrote: | | Is it just me that finds talk about other people's children (including relatives) exceedingly boooring? Do we not have enough interests, that we think that's all anyone has to talk about? I really don't get the question since I rarely bore anyone with my children's escapades unless it's really press worthy. |
Merrymom, ,are you close with anyone who is struggling to have kids?
Here's the thing: the perspective of someone who does have kids and does fit in is going to be a lot different than the perspective of someone who is struggling to have kids and feels out of it.
On this thread alone, those who are dealing with fertility challenges or who are divorced seem to relate to this thread and agree with what I'm saying. It's only those who are not challenged in this area that disagree with my points.
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Fox
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:53 pm
| Merrymom wrote: | | Is it just me that finds talk about other people's children (including relatives) exceedingly boooring? Do we not have enough interests, that we think that's all anyone has to talk about? I really don't get the question since I rarely bore anyone with my children's escapades unless it's really press worthy. |
Couldn't agree more! And is it just me that notices that, sooner or later, such talk always takes on a competitive edge?
Years ago, in her book, Growing With My Children, Sarah Shapiro described meeting a Chassidish mother of 18 during her stay at a kimpeturin home: "I am, boruch Hashem, the proud mother of 18 darling monsters." I didn't have children of my own at that point, but it illustrated perfectly to me that love, adoration, and self-denigration all play vital roles in parenthood!
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Raisin
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:57 pm
| gold21 wrote: | | Raisin wrote: | I know plenty of non Jewish families with more then 2 kids. Maybe I live in a very child friendly society? Where I live the non Jews usually have bigger families then the Jews.
Just like in the frum world people may feel pressure to have more kids, in the secular world, there may be pressure not to have more then 2 kids. Many couple may want more children, but don't want to be looked on as weird. Or their spouse doesn't want kids. Plus, then they may not be able to afford all the stuff their friends are buying for their kids if they have a bunch.
But anyway I'm not sure what the answer to your question is. Should we all stop have kids so some people feel less pain when they are childless? I'm sure a secular woman who has just failed her 10th ivf cycle feels just as much pain as a frum woman experiencing the same thing in Boro Park.
I do think a woman should have other interests in life apart from kids. At some point the kids will grow up and need you less. |
I feel that in secular society, if a couple is married for 2 years and they don't have kids yet, they will not feel as much stress and pressure as a chassidish couple living in boro park would. Along the same line of thought, in secular society, a woman who is not married by 25 will not feel as out-of-it as a woman in our circles would feel. So, yeah, I do think its stressed much more in frum circles. |
You could say the same about more left wing and M.O circles where it is normal for newlyweds to delay having children.
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robynm
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 1:59 pm
| gold21 wrote: | | Merrymom wrote: | | Is it just me that finds talk about other people's children (including relatives) exceedingly boooring? Do we not have enough interests, that we think that's all anyone has to talk about? I really don't get the question since I rarely bore anyone with my children's escapades unless it's really press worthy. |
Merrymom, ,are you close with anyone who is struggling to have kids?
Here's the thing: the perspective of someone who does have kids and does fit in is going to be a lot different than the perspective of someone who is struggling to have kids and feels out of it.
On this thread alone, those who are dealing with fertility challenges or who are divorced seem to relate to this thread and agree with what I'm saying. It's only those who are not challenged in this area that disagree with my points. |
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gold21
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 2:01 pm
| Raisin wrote: | | gold21 wrote: | | Raisin wrote: | I know plenty of non Jewish families with more then 2 kids. Maybe I live in a very child friendly society? Where I live the non Jews usually have bigger families then the Jews.
Just like in the frum world people may feel pressure to have more kids, in the secular world, there may be pressure not to have more then 2 kids. Many couple may want more children, but don't want to be looked on as weird. Or their spouse doesn't want kids. Plus, then they may not be able to afford all the stuff their friends are buying for their kids if they have a bunch.
But anyway I'm not sure what the answer to your question is. Should we all stop have kids so some people feel less pain when they are childless? I'm sure a secular woman who has just failed her 10th ivf cycle feels just as much pain as a frum woman experiencing the same thing in Boro Park.
I do think a woman should have other interests in life apart from kids. At some point the kids will grow up and need you less. |
I feel that in secular society, if a couple is married for 2 years and they don't have kids yet, they will not feel as much stress and pressure as a chassidish couple living in boro park would. Along the same line of thought, in secular society, a woman who is not married by 25 will not feel as out-of-it as a woman in our circles would feel. So, yeah, I do think its stressed much more in frum circles. |
You could say the same about more left wing and M.O circles where it is normal for newlyweds to delay having children. |
True, that's why this thread is titled "frum (primarily yeshivish)" 
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Fox
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 2:16 pm
IMHO, the pressure for young couples to have a baby quickly is just insane! When I was first married, fertility specialists wouldn't even see you until you'd been TTC for three years. Of course, when you have more hammers, you start seeing nails everywhere, so while new medical options have been a tremendous bracha, they've also "defined IF down" to the point where anyone who is not pregnant within a year is considered to be in need of treatment.
One formidable older rebbetzin in my community recently complained, "Honestly! If the kallah's tummy isn't pouffing out by sheva brochos, everyone starts worrying and nudging each other."
Every scenario in life has advantages and disadvantages: having kids immediately is great, but it means less time as a couple and more pressures for immediate parnosseh, child care, etc. Having kids at an older age (my oldest was born when I was 33) means that Mommy may have more maturity than energy (and less patience for Uncle Moishy)! There is no perfect formula, and the only people with perfect lives are people you don't know very well.
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gold21
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 2:22 pm
| Fox wrote: | IMHO, the pressure for young couples to have a baby quickly is just insane! When I was first married, fertility specialists wouldn't even see you until you'd been TTC for three years. Of course, when you have more hammers, you start seeing nails everywhere, so while new medical options have been a tremendous bracha, they've also "defined IF down" to the point where anyone who is not pregnant within a year is considered to be in need of treatment.
One formidable older rebbetzin in my community recently complained, "Honestly! If the kallah's tummy isn't pouffing out by sheva brochos, everyone starts worrying and nudging each other."
Every scenario in life has advantages and disadvantages: having kids immediately is great, but it means less time as a couple and more pressures for immediate parnosseh, child care, etc. Having kids at an older age (my oldest was born when I was 33) means that Mommy may have more maturity than energy (and less patience for Uncle Moishy)! There is no perfect formula, and the only people with perfect lives are people you don't know very well. |
So true.
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AlwaysThinking
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 2:51 pm
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I often find that people who haven't gone through IF forget that it isn't just not having kids at the same time as everyone else, but the worry that you may never have even one...
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Fox
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 3:06 pm
| Riff wrote: | | I often find that people who haven't gone through IF forget that it isn't just not having kids at the same time as everyone else, but the worry that you may never have even one... |
True, but I think the fertility industry plays on that fear to a certain extent. There is no reason for an otherwise healthy woman in her early 20s who has been TTC for only a year to become fearful and anxious. Yet I see that all the time, and I hear doctors referring patients to specialists after as little as 6 months TTC. Even if such a woman doesn't conceive "easily," there is no reason after such a short length of time to assume that she will necessarily require invasive assistance.
I realize that it's hard to strike the perfect balance, and I don't blame the fertility industry, per se. However, at least in the frum veldt, instead of simply appreciating the miracles that Hashem has worked, we are increasing the pressure to produce pregnancies "on demand."
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BusyBeeMommy
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Mon, Apr 29 2013, 11:38 pm
| Quote: | | Not trying to nitpick, just discussing- how do you know that the foundation of Judiasm is about children? Like, isn't it just about serving Hashem |
In many ways:
Avraham Avinu was promised that his children will be like the stars.
There were multiple blessings given to the avos and shevatim about having many children.
The women in mitzrayim were blessed (yes, then it was considered a blessing) with having sextuplets.
When Hashem asked the Jews for a guarantor at sinai when He gave the Torah, he accepted the children as the ones to continue the Torah...
I'm sure there are many other examples. Just look into the Torah, one of the most common blessings are to have many children. "Hamalach, hagoel... v'yidgu lorov b'kerev ha'aretz."
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SivanMom
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Tue, Apr 30 2013, 12:33 am
| amother wrote: | | ysmommy wrote: | | miami85 wrote: | For non jews children are just--forgive the callousness- "another mouth to feed and clothe", but in Judaism children are "nachas", another link in the mesorah from Avraham Avinu keeping the promise alive that the non jews will never destroy us.
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if children were just another mouth to feed in the secular world our race would be extinct by now.
Non jewish moms and dads put their sweat and tears into their children just like we do. |
I never see strollers with babies left outside, untended, no matter the weather, outside the Pathmark, Shoprite, or Honeybaked Ham store, for that matter.
I never see little kids running around without adult supervision outside of the local church the way I do outside of my shul.
In the non-frum world, when parents are caught leaving their toddlers or young school-aged children untended, its called "neglect." On this group, frum women often call it "good parenting" (I left a monitor with a neighbor! How could I get my other kids from the bus if I didn't leave the babies alone?)
Non-Jews love their children. The big difference is they don't need to insult Jews to show how much they love their kids |
I absolutely take offense at what you wrote. Nobody I know leaves their children unattended. Have you ever seen a Jewish child left alone outside of a Pathmark or Shoprite that you feel you can compare how Jews and non-Jews raise their kids? I personally wake up two children from naps quite often to pick up my child from the next block, so don't go placing blanket statements that Jews don't take care of their kids. In the shul that I go to, you see plenty of strollers outside. I have never seen a child in one of them though. In the playground I go to, every child is accompanied by an adult. I have no idea what you are talking about. And why are you amother, anyway?
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