REVISED Is what WoW are doing Halachically assur?

SJcookie

Tue, May 07 2013, 2:24 am

Is it halachically assur to play rap music (on a boombox) at the kotel? Is it halachically assur to open up an old navy store at the kotel? Is it halachically assur to open an aroma cafe at the kotel? Is it halachically assur to throw out someone else's note at the kotel? Is it halachically assur to read someone else's note at the kotel?

The answer to all of these questions is technically - NO. You won't find any sefer that says the exact phrase "it is assur to open up an old navy store at the kotel" or "it is assur to throw out some else's kotel note."
Because guess what? That's not how halacha works. Not EVERYTHING assur is spelled out. That's why there's such a thing as "daat Torah" - ask respected Rabbanim and see what they say.

No posek supports WoW. Does Rav kanievsky support them? Does Rav Ovadia? Did Rav Elyashiv z"l?
Oh, too charedi?
Ok let's go to DL/Chardal Rabbanim. How about Rav Aviner? Rav Dov Lior? Rav Melamed?

Hm?
How about Rav Mordechai Eliyahu z"l who was known for his major ahavat yisrael and is often called "avihem shel Yisrael" - the father of am yisrael?

Every time I see how many frum women on this board support WoW, I think "olam hafuch raiti." Sad

shalhevet

Tue, May 07 2013, 2:29 am

SJcookie wrote:

It's called דעת בעלי בתים הפוך מדעת תורה

Where's the LOVE button for your post, SJ? Like is not enough. Thumbs Up

DrMom

Tue, May 07 2013, 2:33 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Barbara wrote:

imasoftov wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

where can I get one???

here

For $275, including shipping. Of course, Seraph says its $500. Which tells you all you need to know about her objectivity and fact reporting on this matter.

Not to mention that it clearly states that part of the proceeds support WoW. And if you go to Zion Judaica, a similar talit is $210. http://www.zionjudaica.com/Ema.....2.asp

But, as always, let's not facts get in the way of a good attack on women who want to commit the crime of davening, which was subject to arrest and imprisonment in Israel.

Why do people need $ just to daven at the kotel?! They shouldn't need to fund raise if they are doing things lishma.
The cost of a regular talis is 100-200 nis! Not $.. Obviously just a little overpriced.

1. The money probably goes to their legal fees, which tend to pile up if you get arrested every month.

2. Lots of people sell tallisim that cost >NIS 100. So what? Many people want something nice to wear -- hidur mitzvah. Is anyone wearing or selling a tallis that costs >NIS 100 now suspect in your mind?

ally

Tue, May 07 2013, 3:11 am

DrMom wrote:

notshanarishona wrote:

Barbara wrote:

imasoftov wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

where can I get one???

here

Also, a decorative tallis may help alleviate the "beged ish" aspect. But let's not let that get in the way of our outrage...

chani8

Tue, May 07 2013, 3:19 am

SJcookie wrote:

None of those rabbis are my rabbis, so what is your point? Halachically, there is nothing usser about this, so knowing that, why would we need rabbinical approval? There is no shailah.

Seraph

Tue, May 07 2013, 3:20 am

Barbara wrote:

imasoftov wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

where can I get one???

here

For $275, including shipping. Of course, Seraph says its $500. Which tells you all you need to know about her objectivity and fact reporting on this matter.

Not to mention that it clearly states that part of the proceeds support WoW. An if you go to Zion Judaica, a similar talit is $210. http://www.zionjudaica.com/Ema.....2.asp

But, as always, let's not facts get in the way of a good attack on women who want to commit the crime of davening, which was subject to arrest and imprisonment in Israel.

A friend of mine has seen it being sold at that price but I am unable to say where specifically or This person would be at risk of losing her job.

chani8

Tue, May 07 2013, 3:31 am

Seraph wrote:

Barbara wrote:

imasoftov wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

where can I get one???

here

For $275, including shipping. Of course, Seraph says its $500. Which tells you all you need to know about her objectivity and fact reporting on this matter.

Not to mention that it clearly states that part of the proceeds support WoW. An if you go to Zion Judaica, a similar talit is $210. http://www.zionjudaica.com/Ema.....2.asp

But, as always, let's not facts get in the way of a good attack on women who want to commit the crime of davening, which was subject to arrest and imprisonment in Israel.

A friend of mine has seen it being sold at that price but I am unable to say where specifically or This person would be at risk of losing her job.

That's interesting. Are you basing all of your info on stuff you hear from "friends" or, as someone already asked you, have you actually been to the wall when the WOW were there and witnessed their "disruptive behaviors"? Is your fight based all on heresay? On gossip? Are you starting up with other jews without ever talking to them in person, first? Have you met Anat? Surely you have fulfilled halachic requirements of shmiral haloshen before starting all this????

amother

Tue, May 07 2013, 4:31 am

GOODNESS GRACIOUS- I began reading this post after reading Seraph's (admittedly mediocre) article on this issue, pretty upset with WoW, and wondering how I could sign up with Women for the Wall from the States in support of my frum sisters against yet another attack on orthodoxy.

As I read through the posts I have become completely disappointed with Seraph's LAME explanations/defenses/reasoning. I mean COME ON... "a friend told me her cat saw teffilin being sold for $500.." ! Are you kidding me with this?

Quite possibly the WORST point Seraph made was that she values the feminist agenda in every area BUT religion. !!!!!! UMMMM only someone utterly uneducated in history could make such a comment. Religion has historically been used to exploit differences between genders in such egregious ways that saying you support feminism in every realm but religion, is like saying you support your pet in every way but physically! lol.... Im sure that fish really appreciates your emotional support, Seraph!!

Aside from feeling completely disappointed in Seraph's defense of Women for the Wall, I also very much began to agree with HindaRochel and other women on here. The "TOOL OF PATRIARCHY" was right on.. unfortunately women can be their own worst enemies. You can always respond by saying "oh just because we dont agree with you doesnt mean we are unthinking! Look who is direspecting women now!" But that is such a non-starter... because yes Seraph, this time your position IS unthinking ... sometimes that is true.

I cant say I am comfortable with Women of the Wall's tallis wearing, minyan-seeking ways. My gut reaction is disgust, the urge to mock, discomfort with all of it. That just goes to show that we ALL have been complacent for so long that our own sensibilities (I am a well-educated attorney for G-ds sake!!!) have been dumbed down for us. Even as I defend the WoW side of things, I feel that deep discomfort- I just admit is MY shortcoming. In short, I am Seraph, just honest.

Seraph

Tue, May 07 2013, 4:43 am

chani8 wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Barbara wrote:

imasoftov wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

where can I get one???

here

For $275, including shipping. Of course, Seraph says its $500. Which tells you all you need to know about her objectivity and fact reporting on this matter.

Not to mention that it clearly states that part of the proceeds support WoW. An if you go to Zion Judaica, a similar talit is $210. http://www.zionjudaica.com/Ema.....2.asp

But, as always, let's not facts get in the way of a good attack on women who want to commit the crime of davening, which was subject to arrest and imprisonment in Israel.

A friend of mine has seen it being sold at that price but I am unable to say where specifically or This person would be at risk of losing her job.

I can tell you that my friend ___ was present when Anat Hoffman sold her WoW talleisim for 500 dollars, but if I did tell you who this friend was and where this frend witnessed it, that friend would be out of a job immediately. So I have plans to go to this place where Anat Hoffman does it and be there to witness it myself so I have physical proof to show you.

And yes, I have talked to them in person. I've talked to Rachel Cohen Yeshurun and Cheryl Mack, two people who are on the board of WoW, one of whom I've known ever since I was a little kid (Cheryl's husband, Eric, davened in young Israel in Cleveland with my father, and Cheryl and Eric came by to our home a lot with their two daughters. We were close family freinds, and we've been in touch again recently because of the Women of the Wall issue. And yes, I've spoken to them. And they've been very derisive and nasty towards me and not interested in any sort of compromise whatsoever.

Seraph

Tue, May 07 2013, 4:46 am

amother wrote:

Quite possibly the WORST point Seraph made was that she values the feminist agenda in every area BUT religion. !!!!!! UMMMM only someone utterly uneducated in history could make such a comment. Religion has historically been used to exploit differences between genders in such egregious ways that saying you support feminism in every realm but religion, is like saying you support your pet in every way but physically! lol.... Im sure that fish really appreciates your emotional support, Seraph!!

Yiddishkeit, specifically, doesn't need feminism to protect women, because yiddishkeit treats women well. The only people who think that it doesn't are those that think that because Judaism admits that women and men are different, that it automatically is misogynistic, because "separate but equal is not equal".
Which is an american thought, not a torah value.

saw50st8

Tue, May 07 2013, 5:18 am

shalhevet wrote:

Barbara wrote:

You know what bothers me? We live in a world in which 1/3 of all American marriages in which one partner is a Jew, the other partner is not. Where people are becoming more and more disconnected from religion.

But the people that women here are choosing to demonize are those who want to daven. Who want to leyn. Who want to learn and be part of Judaism. And who actually know HOW to daven and leyn and lay teffillin, even if you think that they shouldn't.

And more than that. There are roughly 8760 hours in a year. These women daven at the kotel once a month. Let's even give it 3 hours, with everything. 36 hours a year. Less than 1/2 of one percent of the year. Not even one percent of non-sleeping hours. But anything less than 100% of the time for things being the way the right-wing Orthodox want it to be is good enough. If you refuse to daven as a right-wing Orthodox Jew, and if as a woman, you don't know your place, then they will do everything they can to destroy you.

That's right. Destroy. All because they want to daven. Who needs the Palestinians to take over the kotel, when you have Jews telling you that you may not pray to Hashem in a manner that is fully in accordance with halacha.

Yes, it bothers me too. Which is (one more reason) why we should continue keeping Judaism as it has always been practiced. You do realize what you are arguing, Barbara? Who is contributing to the intermarriage statistics? Those backward, black hat chareidim with an intermarriage rate close to zero? Or Anat Hoffman and her friends in the Conservative and Reform movements with spiralling rates, and which even welcomes non-Jewish partners. Because their children aren't receiving a Jewish education worth anything (if at all) and they have nothing to offer.

Because when a woman has to put on tallis and tefillin and is so disconnected from her true purpose and a real Torah education, and it is legitimate to do what you like when seeking spirituality, then it's legitimate too to marry Christopher or Ahmed if you really love them. Because we need to do whatever makes us feel good, rather than what Hashem asks of us.

I'm glad Michal was so disconnected from Judaism huh?

Seraph

Tue, May 07 2013, 5:20 am

saw50st8 wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Barbara wrote:

I'm glad Michal was so disconnected from Judaism huh?

Someone who doesnt do most of the mitzvos in the torah and feels that the only way she can properly connect to god is via a man's mitzvos is different than someone who is a tzadeikes, does all the mitzvos required of her, so she does a man's mitzva in addition to all the women's mitzvos.

shalhevet

Tue, May 07 2013, 5:26 am

saw50st8 wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Barbara wrote:

I'm glad Michal was so disconnected from Judaism huh?

I think we've been through this already. Several times. WOW clearly state their motives are feminism, gaining recognition for Reform and Conservative streams etc.

When I want to do an extra mitzva I don't feel the need to do so in public and/or call in the media.

It is irrelevant what women WHOSE LEVEL WE CANNOT EVEN FATHOM in other times did or didn't do, because they were solely motivated by wishing to do ratzon Hashem.

Today it is rare for a man to wear tefillin all day - because tefillin demand harnessing your thoughts while wearing them, which most men don't feel capable of doing. Or don't want to advertise that they can.

saw50st8

Tue, May 07 2013, 7:23 am

shalhevet wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Seraph wrote:

So you must be against all form of any chumra before people are already perfect in thier observance of allt he commandments huh?

Do you understand the difference between a chumra and taking on a mitzva someone is not obligated in? Tell me first before I spend a lot of time writing out an explanation.

Yes I understand.

But I know quite a few people who took on chumras and then either let actual mitzvos slide or stopped focusing on areas that they should actually work on.

Chumra is not always a positive.

saw50st8

Tue, May 07 2013, 7:32 am

shalhevet wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Barbara wrote:

I'm glad Michal was so disconnected from Judaism huh?

I'm not sure why you neglect the Orthodox women who join WoW. And I'm not sure why it matters. Only Orthodox people deserve the right to pray at a national monument?

People like to ascribe malice to situations that don't require them. WoW have been praying at the Kotel on Rosh Chodesh for 20 years. You know what changed? People attacking them, not their own actions.

I am disturbed by many people at the Kotel and I don't tell them to how to daven and behave.

How about we outlaw all tzitzit at the Kotel? Men are not technically required to wear tzitzit if they are not wearing a four cornered garment.