Kids noticing that my family is not frum

amother

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:42 pm

I think it's nice that OP wants the cousins to be friends, but she's going to have to decide where her priorities are. If the family is not willing to respect her standards I don't see how going there for Shabbos can be an appropriate choice for her children's ruchnius, but that's just my opinion. (Why can't you put the kids into the car after Shabbos & drive at night while they're sleeping, if you have to be there Sunday morning?)

You also have to realize that as your nieces and nephews get older, there will be more and more that you are exposing your children to by spending time with them, and you will have to decide where to draw the line.

I have a niece who goes to a non-Orthodox school, although her parents are officially Shomrei Shabbos, their standards are way different than mine. This puts a huge pressure on us when they come, as we are not comfortable having her talk to the kids unsupervised, so someone gives up their Shabbos nap to sit around with the kids. Still, we welcome them because we do want to keep the connection - but on our own turf, with our standards.

(NOT to get into whether you agree with my view on this particular point or not, but she did tell my daughter about her best friend who has two moms, which was not something my daughter needed to know. In my opinion. Not to be debated here. I am just saying about things that can come up.

So, one time DSIL was nearby & wanted to come for Shabbos with DD and DD's friend. Would that happen to be Heather? Yes, it was. Sorry, no, not in my house with my kids.

Again, not debating this point, please, there are plenty of [locked] threads on this topic. I am just pointing out that one is entitled to set rules in ones own home. (For those ready to stone me, my married DD whose kiddies are small agreed to have them.)

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 2:30 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

littles wrote:

Quote:

you would say this to your children, really? this is HORRIBLE, shameful really.

Would say? I have said this and think it is necessary to say. I have trained my children to know what hechshers are, where to find them, and which we use. And that even well meaning people who think things are kosher don't always know what they are talking about. Maybe it's my life experience, but when my mom offered my 5 year old son altoids and he insisted that they were not kosher and she said yes they are, he asked to see the package and saw that there was no hechsher. This would never have happened if I had taught him that grandma is Jewish and everyone has their own level of kashrus. My children from a very young age know that their relatives do not observe mitzvos and STILL love and respect them, it's all in how you explain it. If anything, my kids have awakened a love of yiddishkeit in their grandparents and great-grandparents because even though young, they have a strong sense of pride about what they believe and do. And yes, there are some things that are right for Jews, whether they are aware of it or not, and others that are wrong. I want to raise Torah observant Jews with a strong sense and understanding of Jewish ideology and I have no shame about that.

because you're telling them that your family's rabbi isn't a REAL rabbi, and that what your family is doing is wrong.

can't you say your family is different and believes different things? are the only REAL rabbis frum rabbis? it's judgemental, it's factually incorrect, and it makes your children disrespect your family's religious leaders.

Jews who believe in Torah and mitzvos believe that those teaching things against Torah are wrong. Are you Orthodox? I really cannot believe some of the things which have been written on this thread.

Since we believe in the written and oral Torahs, and in the halacha as has been handed down by the chain of transmission through the generations, we believe that those seeking to change it or undermine it are wrong. And that's what we teach our children. That keeping Torah and mitzvos is the only acceptable way a Jew should behave. (This doesn't mean we can't love other Jews or that it's always a good idea to discuss other people's behaviour with our children.)

DrMom

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 3:28 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

littles wrote:

Tell your kids that what your extended family is doing is wrong, but we don't have the power to change other people and their beliefs and we tespect and love them anyways. Explain that they have been led to believe by their "rabbis" that what they are doing is right, but that their "rabbis" are not real rabbeim and it is sad, but likely unchangeable. Tell your children that they should feel proud of how they observe Hashem's Torah, even if it is not always as easy or fun and that they are giving Hashem nachas.

you would say this to your children, really? this is HORRIBLE, shameful really.

I think you should drop the part about criticizing their religious leaders (why go there, really?).

Tell them that their relatives didn't have the opportunity to learn the halacha fully, so sometimes they make mistakes, and that kashrut (and halacha in general) is complicated, so you shouldn't follow the example of someone who doesn't know what he is doing.

Encourage them to be cautious, esp if something strikes them as questionable, and have them ask you or your DH if they are not sure.

Frum

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 3:57 am

It's really interesting to read all the replies. I'm more or less in the same boat, although my children are still a bit too young to ask questions (4,2 and 0), although I feel this issue is becoming more accute for the 4 yr old. I still find it very, very difficult to tell my children that the non-frum relatives are wrong, while at the same time not judging them. A child's view (and, in a way, halacha as well) is black and white. Either you're right or you are wrong. And in a way that's how I want them to see it. I want them to understand that there is one halacha, and either you keep it or you don't. At the same time, I want them to respect their relatives and not say things that might offend them. Of course there is a difference between issues like cholov yisroel (where you can say, ok our relatives eat cholov stam but are still eating kosher) or turning on a light switch on shabbos (which can't be excused in any way). But I find it really difficult to find the right balance here.

Anyone spoke about this with her rov, and what did he say?

June

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 5:42 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

I don't have much to add to the op because I've never been in such a situation (and I don't even have kids) but I couldn't let this go without commenting.
no, as orthodox jews we don't believe that conservative or reform rabbis are real rabbis. we don't accept their conversions, we don't accept their marriages, and we don't eat in their houses. so what makes them real rabbis?

DrMom

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 5:49 am

June wrote:

vintagebknyc wrote:

But you don't need to bring that up in the discussion you (OP) need to have with your kids.

chani8

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 8:46 am

June wrote:

vintagebknyc wrote:

I used to see things so black and white like this too, but now, I don't know, it sounds so strange to read that. We don't believe your rabbi is a rabbi, so what? The rest of the world does. Rabbi Judy is a rabbi. Not someone I would hold by. Not someone I would agree with. But she did whatever she was supposed to do in her learning and was awarded that title. There has to be a better way to explain these things without denying reality, a reality that the rest of the world holds by.

Maybe try, "this is not the orthodox way, and we're orthodox." That is what I tell my kids.

Last edited by chani8 on Mon, Jun 10 2013, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

greenfire

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 9:46 am

the minute you make it black & white - I'm right & you're wrong ... you start pushing everybody away

there's a balance you know ... it's called respectfully being a mentsch ... knowing how to keep what is proper for you without degrading someone else to get there ... when kids see this attitude they are more likely to have respect for what you need of them as a frum family

when relatives see that you have respect for them regardless of your stringent ways, they are more likely to respect you as well without feeling the need to justify their ways vs yours - not to mention getting turned off from judaism

amother

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 11:44 am

It's starting to sound like I'm going to need to read my kids something as long as the Declaration of Independence before we go to my sister! My kids both understand Kibud Av Va'Em so I think I will tell them that we are so lucky to be frum Jews and observe Hashem's mitzvos and to be close to Hashem in this way. I will add that Aunt A, Uncle B, Grandpa C, Grandma D, etc. do not have the same special relationship with Hashem that we do. They do not observe Shabbos and Kashrut as Hashem commanded us (of course, probably no one does, but I'm going to skip over that ...). However, since they are mommy's family, ie: mommy's father and sister, we still need to give them the same respect we give our parents, ie: kibbud Av Va'em. So, they need to be careful about making sure they do what they know to be right regarding shabbos and kashrut and ask mommy PRIVATELY if they are confused about anything.

It's still a problem that if I tell my son "you can't eat that, it isn't kosher," he asks "why does aunt a not keep kosher and aunt a says "we do." This "different people do different things" is something adults an synthesize but kids cannot. So I am going to ask my sister and father not to "rule" on halacha for my children, to instead tell them to ask me, because I am in charge of them.

And UGH my father wants my kids to spend a week there over the summer!

DrMom

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 11:56 am

amother wrote:

greenfire

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 12:00 pm

amother wrote:

I will add that Aunt A, Uncle B, Grandpa C, Grandma D, etc. do not have the same special relationship with Hashem that we do.

don't ever undermine someone else's relationship with god - this is their own personal space ... aside from the factor that kids will inevitably repeat what mommy says & they will surely let aunty uncle grandma and the entire world know how you feel about them & god ...

saying we do things differently without putting them down is way more effective in the long run ... not to mention respectful

amother

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 12:19 pm

DrMom wrote:

And UGH my father wants my kids to spend a week there over the summer!

We also have non-frum relatives who generously volunteer to watch our children for longer periods of time, but we always make sure they are elsewhere for shabbat. The kashrut problems are bad enough and day of the week, but we found that the complications involved in staying in a non-shomer-shabbat non-kosher home ON SHABBAT were just too burdensome.[/quote]

In the past I've let them go for a few days and either have them brought back before Shabbos or gone down for Shabbos and brought them back after. I'm not so sure that leaving them by themselves is going to work at this point.

vintagebknyc

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 12:56 pm

shalhevet wrote:

am I orthodox? no, I'm a member of a wiccan tribe.

I've seen what happens when BTs spout this kind of hatred to their families: estrangement, and a deep loathing of judaism. I've another family member who became BT about 30 years before I did; her behavior was such a chillel hashem it pushed me ever further away from judaism than I already was.

penguin

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 2:29 pm

Want to host your kids for a week, eh?

Please ask your LOR if that's acceptable. AIUI, a person who is not shomer mitzvos does not have ne'emanus. Therefore, it's a very serious question whether you can trust them not to feed your children things you wouldn't want them fed. And how about taking them to inappropriate entertainment?

As much as they may say they will follow your rules, are you ready to trust that they won't expose the kids to things "for their own good"?

We can all tell you what we would do/have done. But we are not you and our relatives are not your relatives.
Please discuss with LOR you trust. There is no substitute for IRL advice from someone who knows you.

tzfatisha

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 3:33 pm

here in israel there are so many different heschers that kids learn to say 'that's not our heshcher' when offered food/sweets etc that their family doesn't accept...so I think you could explain to them that 'we have certain heshcers that x, y & z don't use/don't always use, so you need to check with me first - another thing you could say which a haredi friend of mine says something like this~

as a klal we keep all of the mitzvot that we can keep without the beit hamikdash...but some people concentrate more on kashrut, others on learning torah, others on tikkun olam, others on tznuit, others on giving to tzedakah, or visiting the sick, or being shomer shabbat...others on settling the land, others on the laws of business, etc etc...
you could then go on to say...
we focus on z x, y...... , while grandma and grandpa are more concerned with a and b, while aunty and uncle are focus more on... e & f... of course we should all do everything, and as a klal we do, as far as we can... and hashem understands that the klal is doing everything - even if as individuals we aren't all doing everything...

chani8

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 3:45 pm

amother wrote:

Umm, no. Rethink this and try again. The part in the bolded, is yucky. Just FTR, kids have a gaivah detector and it's a fine balance between building us up and not smashing others.

But you can do this. Get ride of the gaivah and inject more of your wonderful sense of humor, and say something that would be acceptable to say in front of everyone. If it's something you can say in front of your family, then you're on the right track.

abby1776

Mon, Jun 10 2013, 4:15 pm

I have this problem too - although my family is MO and we are more yeshivish - so it ends up more of an issue that my family watches a lot of tv and videos, that we dont let our kids watch (even if we werent religous I dont think we would let our kids watch). Also there is the entire Cholev Yisroel thing. Plenty of orthodox people who are shomer shabbos and kashrut dont hold Cholev Yisroel or Yoshon, but its still confusing to my kids. My parents also offered to take my kids for a week over summer break, but we just say thank you but I dont think its possible.

My parents always come to us and if we go to NYC to see them, we go out to eat in a restaurant. Its sad because I wish my kids could have a closer relationship with their cousins (I only have one sister and DH is an only child) but it is just not possible.