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Dinosaurs

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wispalover

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 8:29 am

merelyme wrote:

Another explanation is that just as God created Adam and Chava as adults, He created a mature world, with fossils, dinosaur bones, and many other things already within.

That is basically what I said above, I think? To me, that explanation makes the least sense- what would be the purpose of leaving fossils? As a test of our emunah?

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 8:48 am

marina wrote:

I don't know how you all know I had a grandmother. I guess you extrapolate.

What did I miss?
And did you not have grandmothers? How did you get here?

yogabird

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 9:03 am

marina wrote:

I don't know how you all know I had a grandmother. I guess you extrapolate.

I always had this hypothesis that you were a dinosaur...

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 9:11 am

I understand not wanting to believe the "science shita". I don't understand why davka dinosaurs have to be taboo or avoided, even if you don't believe they are old/lived there/existed. I don't believe in fairies. I still don't care if my dd has fairy toys or movies.

marina

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 9:50 am

PinkFridge wrote:

What did I miss?
And did you not have grandmothers? How did you get here?

I'm sure you've heard of immaculate conception! And cloning!

marina

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 9:50 am

yogabird wrote:

I always had this hypothesis that you were a dinosaur...

lol, that was just granny

faigie

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:16 am

There is a very interesting book about the dinosaur issue by "the zoo rabbi" Rabbi Slifkin. Till you get the book, here is a link from a blog. And yes, hes a frum rabbi..
http://blog.pjvoice.com/diary/.....torah

theoneandonly

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:25 am

marina wrote:

I don't know how you all know I had a grandmother. I guess you extrapolate.

1. The difference is that we see grandmothers and granddaughters in the world all the time so even though I never saw your grandmother I can assume you have one. The assumption is based on science (reproduction) and observation (seeing grandmothers). No one ever saw a living dinosaur so all there is is science. Therefore it's much less clear.

2. Specifically with dinosaurs, things change every so often so it's much easier to say "Oh the scientists don't know what they're talking about, dinosaurs never existed." An example of things that changed--when I was a little kid a Tyrannosaurus-Rex was a dinosaur that stood straight up on its hind legs with its tail dragging on the ground. A few years later, new discovery! Paleontologists decided that really, a T-Rex is leaning forward and its tail is out in the air behind it, helping it balance. I'm sure there were other changes in ideas about dinosaurs as well, which make people more skeptical in general.

3. My next point is made much more eloquently by Bill Watterson:
"What if my bones were in a museum,
Where aliens paid good money to see ‘em?
And suppose that they’d put me together all wrong,
Sticking bones on to bones where they didn’t belong!

Imagine phalanges, pelvis, and spine
Welded to mandibles that once had been mine!
With each misassemblage, the error compounded,
The aliens would draw back in terror, astounded!

Their textbooks would show me in grim illustration,
The most hideous thing ever seen in creation!
The museum would commission a model in plaster
Of ME, to be called, “Evolution’s Disaster”!

And paleontologists there would debate
Dozens of theories to help postulate
How man survived for those thousands of years
With teeth-covered arms growing out of his ears!

Oh, I hope that I’m never in such manner displayed,
No matter HOW much to see me the aliens paid."

...basically, scientists are taking dinosaur bones and assembling a giant jigsaw puzzle. Who knows if they're getting it right?

(I'm not saying I don't believe in dinosaurs. Kinda playing devil's advocate here.)

amother

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:31 am

I heard that the nachash (snake) had hands and feet and all the dinosaurs were versions of walking/talking large snakes. The fossils we see are of similar type of creatures to the original nachash who walked back then. This was learned in a yeshivish bais yaakov from a very frum teacher

faigie

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:33 am

It pays to read the book ......

Success10

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:36 am

Cute poem, but it's not quite as much of a guessing game as the poem makes it out to be. They're basing their replicas on modern anatomy of similar organisms. Most creatures have the head on top, tail on end, etc.... The illustrations depicting them as reptiles is a bit creative, not enough proof for that in the skeleton alone. All that being said, just because this is what creatures look like today, is not a reason to assume that that's how they appeared bazillions of years ago (which I don't necesserily believe the dinosaurs to be). Scientists are often unable to see outside their own box, and to accept new ideas.

I don't see how their existence has to contradict with our current Jewish calendar. There are many explanations for this, and quite frankly, we don't owe science an explanation, we don't have to try to bend Torah to fit scientific findings.

DrMom

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:36 am

yogabird wrote:

They can't really, so they extrapolate a lot.

I am not a paleontologist, but there is a lot more to it than "they just extrapolate and make stuff up." They look at the type of teeth they have, electronmicroscope patterns of wear on the teeth and how they compare with teeth from living animals, body structure, where the skeleton was found, etc.

Also: I'm sure if a non-frum paleontologist said "Those rabbis are just spewing a lot of nonsense. They just make up all these kosher laws and TH laws to control people," you'd dismiss this person as an ignoramus.

bigsis144

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 10:59 am

merelyme wrote:

Another explanation is that just as God created Adam and Chava as adults, He created a mature world, with fossils, dinosaur bones, and many other things already within.

According to this, the world could be 2 seconds old too and your memories of yesterday were instantaneously imprinted on your neurons so that you believe yesterday existed when it didn't really.

So while it's impossible to argue philosophically with this (you'll just go in epistemological circles), it's not a scientific argument, and is irrelevant to a specifically scientific discussion or proof.

theoneandonly

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:03 am

Well, this whole discussion is moot anyway. Everyone knows the Magratheans placed the dinosaur skeletons here LOL

gp2.0

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:08 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Love.

gold21

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:09 am

I thought the standard view on dinosaurs is that they did exist, prior to the Mabul. They were not taken into the Teivah. The Mabul aged the rocks and fossils and everything on the Earth and therefore everything appears older than it actually is.

No?

bigsis144

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:27 am

gold21 wrote:

Which version of the Mabul are you talking about? Was the Mabul over the entire planet? Was the Mabul just in the general vicinity of Eretz Yisrael?

There are multiple reasons why the Mabul itself doesn't jive with geological/fossil evidence (or even the laws of physics, especially if you take midrashim about the depth of the boiling hot water covering the earth to be literal); using it to explain geological/fossil records makes even less sense.

Success10

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:44 am

bigsis144 wrote:

This is not an argument because according to our tradition, the world is 5774 years old. So it can't be 2 seconds old.

Success10

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:46 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Why should the Torah have to convince modern science of it's validity? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

shlomitsmum

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:50 am

My Son can name every single one of this critters ....he taught himself at 3.
He is in a serious Yeshiva and B'H loves learning "hard stuff" he sees no conflict ,his theory is that Hashem made them too when creating everything ,saw they were not good and started again just like an artist does Smile

We did not make a big deal of it . and the issue is a non issue

His Yeshiva here covers a decent english curriculum and he still reads whatever he can get his hands on . he is happy respected and challenged.

Last edited by shlomitsmum on Thu, Jan 16 2014, 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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