Dinosaurs | Imamother

DrMom

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 2:52 pm

Success10 wrote:

Why should the Torah have to convince modern science of it's validity? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

My viewpoint is that physical phenomena that are referenced in Torah should square with scientific knowledge. If these "truths" do not meet up, then something (a scientific observation, a pasuk, a word meaning, etc.) is not being interpreted correctly.

Success10

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 2:57 pm

DrMom wrote:

Why? Why do the two have to agree? And if they must, why should the Torah be the one who needs to do the explaining?

sequoia

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 2:57 pm

This is so... odd.

There were creatures, living organisms, before dinosaurs, who became extinct.

There were creatures contemporaneous with dinosaurs who became extinct.

There were creatures who died out recently (the dodo bird, the auroch).

And some number of species are vanishing every day. Yesterday. Today. Tomorrow. Poof. Gone.

Why are specifically dinosaurs the problem???

bigsis144

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 2:59 pm

Success10 wrote:

This is not an argument because according to our tradition, the world is 5774 years old. So it can't be 2 seconds old.

Just for fun, you could say the Torah (just like tree rings and trilobite fossils and stars billions of light years away) was created at the same instant as your memories of this "mesorah", and both are 2 seconds old.

Welcome to the Matrix.

I never said it's a philosophical problem; only a scientific one. Big distinction.

EmesOrNT

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:01 pm

Sequuoia, the only issue with the dinosaurs, is the fact that they are believed to have lived billions of years ago. In the Torah, we learn the the world is less than 6000 years old, therefore, it doesn't add up.

Personally, I believe Dinosaurs were the original Nachash, the snake who had it's legs cut off for causing Chava to sin. I also believe that G-d created a mature world, which explains why the fossils appear older than they really are.

I don't see any reason not to explain this to any child, should they ask. My almost 3 year old loves dinosaurs, and I've told him they are like big snakes with feet.

Easy.

bigsis144

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:11 pm

sequoia wrote:

Dinosaurs are being picked on unfairly. I think it's because they appeal to children and have "stickiness" in people's memory.

Big giant monsters? COOL! Those bones are real?! COOLER! They're not around to terrorize me? EVEN COOLER!

And they're popular in the media (toys, tv shows, images on clothes, books), and so more omnipresent in the popular consciousness than say, trilobites or dodo birds.

A 3 or 4 year old is very likely to ask, "Mommy, my friend says dinosaurs were REAL! Were they? What happened to them?"

So dinosaurs are a bigger "danger" than astronomy, geology or various aspects of evolution because it's one of the first experiences a child will have with the science/Torah issue.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:11 pm

Last time I was in NY, I took DD to the Museum of Natural History. I showed her how on the skeletons, they use different colors to be honest about where the bones were missing, and how the scientists were making their best guess. We had a lovely time!

We were staying in Crown Heights, and when people asked us what we did that day, I told them. By the way they looked at us, you'd think I'd taken DD to a Jehovah's Witness revival tent. shock

I see no problem with saying "Yes, dinosaurs were here, and no, we don't know everything about the world." DD and I both love science and biology, and learning about it only makes us more in awe of the power and majesty of Hashem, not less!

amother

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:11 pm

Success10 wrote:

Why? Why do the two have to agree? And if they must, why should the Torah be the one who needs to do the explaining?

Interesting perspective.

So, for example, you would turn to science and demand that it reconcile the fact that the earth orbits around the sun, with the Torah's contrary view. The Torah must be correct, and it is therefore up to science to reconcile its wrong position with the correct Torah position of a geocentric universe.

DrMom

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:12 pm

Success10 wrote:

Why? Why do the two have to agree? And if they must, why should the Torah be the one who needs to do the explaining?

I believe that Torah and science both describe the world, and if they are describing the same world, they should match up, or at least not contradict one another.

I never said the Torah is by default the one who needs to do the explaining. But when people propose all sort of outlandish explanations for observed, measureable scientific information, I suspect that our understanding of Torah on aparticular topic is incomplete.

And as I stated earlier, I do not see any reason why the existence of dinosaurs presents any contradiction to Torah, so I do not undertand why people formulate such philosophical contortions to explain away evidence of their existence.

5*Mom

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:21 pm

DrMom wrote:

Ding ding ding!!

kima

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:24 pm

Oy. Reading some of these misinformed perspectives on science is just painful. Of course the scientific method doesn't let us know about everything exactly right. Yes, it often draws mistaken conclusions. Still, it's a lot more reliable than what people here think. The same science that you trust when you treat your children for a disease or when you get in an airplane is the science that tells us what we know about dinosaurs.

kima

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:31 pm

sequoia wrote:

One of the best dates I ever went on was to the Museum of Natural History. We had a great time looking at the skeletons and talking about science and Torah and carbon dating.

I once heard a lecture by Rabbi Slifkin which he gave at YU where he asks the audience how any of us who are not experts can know that dinosaurs exist. The answers people gave is that we can see the fossils in the museum. He said, "The only problem with that is that the fossils on display are not originals. They're replicas. So that doesn't prove anything!"

Success10

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

The above statement about the Sun revolving around the Earth is written in the Gemara, not in the Tanach. The argument at hand would be if the Rabbis had imperical knowledge of science, or if they were subject to the occasional ignorance. The Gemara also states that it is muttar to kill lice on Shabbos because "Lice are not organisms born from pre-exsting lice, they are borne of sweat" or something to that extent. The halacha as it stands today is that it is still muttar to kill lice on Shabbos, even though according to modern science, we know they are organisms. This is not a one sided issue, and people have different things to say about this. The opinion I have come to follow is that, as nuts as it may sound, science changes by the minute, whereas the rabbis attained their knowledge from the Torah, and we don't doubt it, even if it may not jive with what we learn in grade school today.

But we live in this world! Will we just throw modern science by the wayside? Not take their pills? No, they are two separate realities, and they don't have to agree. We can accept that both are true in some way. But if I had to choose only one reality as emes, I'd choose the Torah one.

Regarding the Earth revolves around sun debate, it's not so clear to me (or other people) that that's what the gemara says. I don't learn gemara, so I'm not entirely sure what it does say, but I have discussed this with dh in the past. Regardless, it doesn't bother me, because I see what the Torah and gemara say as a separate reality to what science says, and they are allowed to contradict, without explanation.

Success10

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 3:43 pm

And, ftr, I do believe that dinosoars roamed the Earth at one point. This is no way contradicts the Torah. Pretending they don't exist is silly.

So what's people's issue? It opens up a whole new can of worms entitled "The Validity of Carbon Dating". I guess it also doesn't jive with the modern theory of evolution, either, that such a creature existed not so long ago.

vintagebknyc

Thu, Jan 16 2014, 4:19 pm

kima wrote:

so everything at the natural history museum is fraudulent, all made of wax and paperclips. who, do you supposed, was the one behind making all these faux skeletons?