Lisping | Imamother

mumsy23

Mon, Sep 08 2008, 11:09 am

anon wrote:

Motek wrote:

I read the following:

"If we perform a skill wrong, we should immediately correct it! Why is this so important?

When acquiring new skills, we train new neural pathways and motor responses. Every time we use the same neural pathway and motor response, we stabilize and reinforce it whether it's right or not."

Why wait to help a child when he's mispronounced the sound thousands of times? That's a shame!

You cannot apply this concept to the acquisition of speech sounds. It is an inappropriate use of this quote. You can give your personal opinion, but you can't use professional quotes to back up your opinion because it doesn't exist.

Children acquire all skills slowly and gradually, speech skills being no exception. ALL children simplify the adult form of langauge when learning to speak because the adult form is too difficult for them to produce. That's why "ball" starts out as "ba" or "rabbit" starts out as "wabbit". The /s/ is a LATER DEVELOPING sound, meaning that when 1 or 2 year olds starts to talk, it is NORMAL that they have trouble producing it. They may commonly substitute the /s/ with a /t/ (so "sink" becomes "tink") or they may substitute it with a /th/, which to our ears sounds like a lisp. Even for those children who don't produce a full frontal lisp when producing the /s/, the sound is probably somewhat deviated. It would be inappropriate to correct a 2 year old's /s/ sound, considering his developmental level. And if you don't agree, then why stop at /s/? Why not correct the 2 year old when he says "wabbit" instead of "rabbit" or "dat" instead of "that"?

If you're worried about stopping a bad habit before it gets too strong, it's relevant to understand that 4 years old is considered a very young age to work on the /s/....it's an age where it would be considered "nipping it in the bud". NO therapist would recommend working on articulation before 3 (unless they are worried about issues that are not typical, such as apraxia), and even 3 is often considered too young.

And for a personal opinion, I think it's terrible to unnecessarily correct a child. As parents, we are ALWAYS correcting our children because there are so many things that they need to be taught. "Don't hit, don't throw your food, don't steal Shimmy's toy, you didn't eat enough food on your plate, don't jump on the couch, don't color on the walls, don't rip your books, don't take your bib off when you're eating, no you cannot have all the cookies-just take one....does the list every end??!!

I would think that, at the very least, kids should be given a break and not corrected when they're being completely appropriate by speaking age-appropriately!

Fox

Tue, Sep 09 2008, 10:11 am

I'm not a speech therapist or even a very informed parent about the various theories regarding speech development, so I'll do everyone a favor and not weigh in on the specifics.

However, I do want to comment that I think many frum schools and parents are far too easygoing and relaxed about speech-related issues, whether in the early years or even a bit later. Most of us need instruction and practice to learn how to control volume, pitch, and tone. Though some people find it naturally easier, almost no one is well-spoken by accident.

Sorry to have hijacked this thread slightly. I guess the sound of mush-mouthed divrei Torah and be-shaiteled women braying like donkeys just makes me a little crazy!

mumsy23

Wed, Sep 10 2008, 1:01 pm

Motek wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

Actually, it is not "to each his own."

Uh, actually it is. I will do what I choose to do, and you will do what you choose to do.

anon - I can and will quote anything I please. You are free to reject anything I write, of course.

and if you check my first post, you will see I discussed this with a speech therapist

I don't understand how you can argue with well known theories of development. They are undisputed - it is not like "some say this" and "some say that". It is a well known idea that children are SUPPOSED make mistakes when they first start speaking, and correcting them directly is unnecessary. I don't know what speech therapist you asked but my only thought is either you misunderstood or the speech therapist is not a very good therapist/ What

Motek

Thu, Sep 11 2008, 10:32 am

mumsy23 wrote:

It is a well known idea that children are SUPPOSED make mistakes when they first start speaking

maybe that is the source of our disagreement

I did not say that when a 10 month old baby utters its first word, that it should be corrected.

I am talking about a child who is talking in sentences which happens earlier for some, later for others. There are children who are talking in sentences at a year and those who need another year to reach that stage.

I don't think it's necessary for me to ask my speech therapist friend to register with imamother to voice her opinion so that it will somehow make her view valid Rolling Eyes

. Nor do I think it's polite to denigrate other views as though ALL professionals in a field agree on everything, which is absurd and just not true.

Clarissa

Thu, Sep 11 2008, 10:37 am

Why would anybody want a speech impediment to gel to the point that a seven year old is not able to speak correctly? We all know that certain impediments detract from the message, what kid needs to deal with that? The only reason I was told not to correct my toddler's lisp at this point is that he's just learning to speak (late talker) and it might self-correct. Believe me, I plan on staying on top of this. When I was a kid, I did speech therapy with a boy who said w's instead of r's, and that was awful for him. He sounded like an infant.

I'm not talking about constantly interrupting or correcting, but gently helping them learn to correct these patterns seems like the right thing to do.

anon

Thu, Sep 11 2008, 12:00 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Again, this is all about AGE. No one is saying that you should wait until 7 to correct a lisp. But definitely at least until 3-4. And how old was the boy who said w's instead of r's? I would say that 3-4 is too early to correct an r, rather it would be more appropriate to start focusing on it around 5. Why? Because /r/ is one of the later developing sounds so it's appropriate for a 3-4 year old to have trouble producing it. I would be very surprised if you thought a 3-4 year sounded "awful" for saying "wabbit".

Clarissa, I'd be curious what your speech therapist thought about correcting a lisp at the young age of 2, even if a child was not a late-talker. Would she think it's appropriate to directly address it at such a young age (as opposed to indirect, which would be providing a good model for the child - something that is always a good thing.)?

anon

Thu, Sep 11 2008, 12:09 pm

Motek wrote:

Bad enough when a boy sounds like an infant, what about when an adult sounds that way?

I'm not sure how our imaginary 20 month old with a lisp suddenly turned into an adult who still has a lisp. Again, the preschool years are considered a YOUNG PRIME age to address articulation issues. If you were to admit that you may have been wrong abotu the 1-2 age range being the prime age, and 3-4 being "too late", then we wouldn't be in such disagreement. Whether or not it is wrong to correct a child who is displaying age-appropriate behaviors (because maybe they won't grow out of it) is another issue.

Motek wrote:

My niece had speech therapy when she was 4 and the speech therapist (a veteran) said she should have come the year before.

OK. What was she receiving speech therapy for? Big question there. I doubt she came in for a simple lisp, and the speech therapist said she should've come earlier. I would guess that she either had difficulty producing earlier-developing sounds and/or she had a more involved articulation disorder with lots of errors, making her somewhat (or very) unintelligible.

Motek

Thu, Sep 11 2008, 1:11 pm

anon wrote:

I'm not sure how our imaginary 20 month old with a lisp suddenly turned into an adult who still has a lisp.

If you're not sure about this, hey, there might be other things to be unsure about!

I believe it is actually possible to have a civil discussion about lisping without it affecting our blood pressure or generating a flurry of private messages to our friends.

Quote:

the 1-2 age range being the prime age, and 3-4 being "too late"

When you can find where I stated that ... I made a simple point, the point being when a child is speaking and speaking incorrectly, rather than have their errors reinforced, try to correct them. You went off into a little speech about how parents are busy correcting all day (maybe speaking for yourself) and declared that correcting their speech is unnecessary and wrong.

Quote:

What was she receiving speech therapy for? Big question there. I doubt she came in for a simple lisp, and the speech therapist said she should've come earlier. I would guess that she either had difficulty producing earlier-developing sounds and/or she had a more involved articulation disorder with lots of errors, making her somewhat (or very) unintelligible.

Big question, you say. So it's not so simple. It depends on the child. What age they start speaking. What their problem is. Perhaps we can agree that it DEPENDS on the situation and we can both adjust what we said. Maybe you can agree that if a 2 and 1/2 year old is saying "thnake", there is nothing wrong and maybe something right in showing him how to hisssss like a "sssssnake." I'm sure you would agree that if mommy and child laugh as they practice hissing, and he actually gets it right, that it would not be another ego-crushing correction in his long, correction-filled day.

And perhaps we can agree that if the child shows no interest and/or doesn't get it, that the mother should hold off.

I'm willing. Are you?

mumsy23

Fri, Sep 12 2008, 12:34 pm

that sounds a little more like it motek. You just need to see things from mine and anons point of view... we are professionals in this field, we went to school for 6 years to learn about these very topics and we know that it is definitely agreed upon in our field that children need not be corrected when making age appropriate errors, such as /w/ for /r/ at 3 years old. It is very rare for a child with an articulation only problem to receive therapy before 3 years old. Children under three receive therapy for delayed language, not artic. If you want to make hissing sounds with your child, that's fine, but I didn't think that was what you were referring too. Plus, the popular research also points to the fact that children are too young to understand proper placement of articulators at that age.

And I dont know who you were referring to about the private messages, but if you thought it was me and anon you are mistaken, not one pm passed between the two of us on this topic.

pacifier

Fri, Sep 12 2008, 1:31 pm

I usually try to repeat words that dd mispronounce, by making a new phrase or just repeating what she said.
sometimes I practice a difficult word with her, and congratulate her on the effort.
this way she still feels confident with talking, but knows there's a better way to pronounce such and such words.
I noticed that sometimes a child needs time to process the information and suddenly 3 weeks later remembers it/ remembers the way to move the lisps for a certain word....

dd saw a few words in sign language on a dvd, never repeated it, and suddenly 3 or 4 weeks after she last saw this dvd, she tells me all those words that were signed!!!

Motek

Sat, Sep 13 2008, 7:08 pm

mumsy23 wrote:

the popular research also points to the fact that children are too young to understand proper placement of articulators at that age.

As I said, "if he actually gets it right." Popular research says lots of things and many of those things change as time goes on or apply to some or many children and not all, so that doesn't impress me at all. What actually works, impresses me. If I was speaking to a professional, I wouldn't want them to parrot their textbooks and teachers to me. I'd want them to be open and encouraging of trying something different if they didn't think it was harmful.

Clarissa

Sat, Sep 13 2008, 7:19 pm

Motek wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

the popular research also points to the fact that children are too young to understand proper placement of articulators at that age.

That's exactly how I feel, and I feel really lucky to have therapists who seem to be constantly evolving and open to trying new things, in spite of all of those years in school and all of those years they've spent in the field. One reason I feel I have such a good working relationship with them (we have three) is that they don't just have this theory or that technique -- they learn by working and doing and communicating respectfully with the families. It's like we're this team, and we're all continuing to learn how to take care of my kid, them as experts and me as an involved parent.

octopus

Sat, Sep 13 2008, 7:23 pm

It's very easy to traumatize a kid. Know what kind of child you are dealing with. Even if you think you are repeating a word and being super,duper "nice" about it.

My nephew is sephardic. My bil "nicely" told his son to pronounce the "beis" as a "bet" (child is in an ashkenazic school). My nephew refused to name the letter for a whole year afterward. ]

I don't know if the situation is comparable. But I would still be very careful.

Also, if the child will immediately "respond" favorably to the correction, then I'm sure past the age of four the child can still be trained not to lisp.

Every lisp problem is not going to be fixed by a simple correction. There are many reasons for a lisp.

mumsy23

Sat, Sep 13 2008, 7:24 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Motek wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

the popular research also points to the fact that children are too young to understand proper placement of articulators at that age.

Of course that is how therapist should be but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Motek, you started off by saying that 3 or 4 is too late to start correcting misarticulations and now you're just saying that if it's not harmful and if it works, why not. But I just want to bring home that 3 or 4 is not too late, but PRIME age to start working on articulation - before then is too young.