Talking to men- the opposite end of the spectrum

freidasima

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 12:20 pm

Am I the only person that charedi men of all persuasions seem to talk to? Maybe it's my status, maybe it's the ones I come in contact with, and maybe it's because we talk tachlis litoeles....but even the frummest meshulachim who won't look at me, love to come and eat in the house when we offer them to come in and have something and those who won't touch food and only drink in the hot summer, they too thank me without looking at me.

Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe because I'm grandmotherly, and maybe because I put the socially awkward ones at ease....but on a one to one level? If someone doesn't acknowledge my existence, I make sure that they do and even laugh about it. I'm not threatening. I'm not alluring at my age, and I know dinnim as well as they do and what is ridiculous and what is normal human behavior.

Also..we don't give anymore to yeshivas that don't send to the army, but in the days that we did, let me tell you, they would come on Friday to collect and enjoy my kigels very much, digging in with dh and the kids for lunch!

piece

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 12:27 pm

the fact that he comes home & was helping shows he is a good person.
the fact that he didn't acknowledge you, I can hear why it bothers you; but I would think he's behaving this way only for religious reasons.
when the man of the house does speak to the girl, others would think it odd--you don't win.
as long as the woman was polite etc, I wouldn't take it to heart.

rachel91

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 12:31 pm

I don't care if they don't look at me, I don't care if they don't talk to me, however..
I do care if a man is 'too frum' to hold open the door for me (mostly with a buggy), or if a man nearly runs into me, because he's looking on the floor while walking on the street... Rolling Eyes

and so on...

mommy3b2c

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 2:55 pm

freidasima wrote:

You are not the only one. I personally, cannot think of any situation where a man would not look at me or talk to me, and I live in Brooklyn, surrounded by yeshivish and chassidish men. I am in my twenties, so definitely not old.

Once, when I was in Israel, a man started yelling at me on fri. night when I was on a walk with my parents, he started yelling in my face. I'm not sure what he said but I think it was something along the lines of me being not tznius, so how dare I walk on the street. It was weird. (and I was definitely dressed tznius.)

amother

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 4:59 pm

I once went out to eat with my DH and 2 non-frum couples. After the meals during the goodbyes both men kissed the other ones' wife. I remember feeling so strongly - I'm glad that I'm the only women who gets to kiss my DH. You may feel some men take on too strong gedorim but I believe their wives are the ones who really benefit.

amother

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:02 pm

freidasima wrote:

OT I know. FS was your DH in the army?

amother

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 6:19 pm

oy oy...My dh is one of these guys.

I don't think it's nice at all what he does. but he won't listen to me. He always likes to take a very machmir approach to all things halachic.

So just make sure not to judge the wife by what her dh does because doesn't always mean she approves.

DrMom

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 8:43 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know what kind of people you hang out with, but I speak to men amd yet have never been kissed by a male colleague or friend. Nobody in my MO circles would think this is a normal way to behave.

Perhaps this is more common in other countries (France?).

chocolate chips

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 8:54 pm

I didnt read all the responses but I do want to say there is not talking and there is respectfully not talking.
I know a few men who do not talk to women in general and definitely don't look at them more than a glance. And that is fine with me I understand people have their chumras and good for them. What I dont understand when they infringe on other people.
I have two extremely frum bils. By my wedding the frummer of the two wished me mazel tov by every single sheva brachos. He did not look at me in the eye when doing so he looked down but the fact that he did that and he thanked my mother also for hosting. The other bil did not so much as step into a mile radius as me. He lives near me but has never said a word to me and avoids not only me but my other sils too (apart from his wife lol).
When the mohel came to my sons bris he spoke to me and kept me informed and checked I was ok before and after without looking at me once.
When my sister got engaged her brother in law who is rav in a shul came to stay at my parents for the vort. He walked in and out the house ate and sat around and never once not once said a word to my mother not mazel tov nor thank you.

So my point is there is the extra frum but polite and respectful and the extra frum and plain rude and selfish.
Op it sounds like this man was of the second category. Ok he didnt want to chat aimlessly but whats wrong with a thank you or a pass the spray?!

zaq

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 9:12 pm

DrMom wrote:

She said they were non-frum couples. Friendly cheek-kissing hello and goodbye is accepted in many secular circles.

mirror

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 9:21 pm

smilingmom wrote:

Don't get me wrong, if I see a male non Jewish colleague, I haven't seen in a long time, I will definitely return a hug or kiss that he initiates, as well as any I may get from my relatives.
I also shake hands with men. I just believe that frummies have to abide by a different standard.

monseychick

Wed, Mar 26 2014, 10:51 pm

DrMom wrote:

Dr M...you live in Israel thats why.. All my UWS friends , kiss lightly on the cheek or back of hand.. Its actually very sweet

DrMom

Thu, Mar 27 2014, 12:20 am

I guess that even in secular circles here in Israel, people know that kissing as a greeting is not done among datiim.

I don't think that I would accept a peck on the cheek from a man, secular or not. If I saw he was kissing people goodbye, I would say goodbye while standing a few feet away. That way he'll understand that "see this polite wave and nod and smile that I'm doing now? this is the goodbye; there will be no kissing -- no offense!"

etky

Thu, Mar 27 2014, 12:32 am

It's totally not acceptable in my MO social circles. Even the most casual physical contact between men and women is shunned. Like Dr. Mom said, many (most?) people are aware of dati prohibitions about touch. On the odd occasion when someone (not dati) extends his hand to me I will take it so as not to embarrass him but it makes me extremely uncomfortable.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Mar 27 2014, 3:18 am

Keep in mind that what is "rude" in some communities is perfectly acceptable in others. In China, you are supposed to slurp your soup from the edge of the bowl, and then belch as loudly as possible. Try it at your seder! Wink

I don't judge men for what they do. I don't live in their heads. I have no idea if they are struggling with an internet addiction and have taken on extra stringencies, if it's a segulah to have a boy, if they have Aspergers, or if they're just really shy. It really does't hurt me at all, and I really don't give it a second thought. What's important to me is that they are trying to do G-d's will, and that's 100 times better than giving me the slow head to toe look, and a friendly "Well, HELLO there! Wink

)

If - for whatever reason - a man feels himself incapable of addressing me in an appropriate manner, I will not begrudge him his coping mechanism. As I said, at least they are trying the best they can to deal with themselves.

freidasima

Thu, Mar 27 2014, 3:25 am

You bet my dh was in the army (was too old for full army service when he made aliya but did whatever and then miluim) and my sons as well and son in law as well.

As for kissing and hugging, my secular and non Jewish colleagues hug and kiss. I'm used to it with my european counterparts, kissing my cheek or my hand or the air behind my cheeks. I have to always remember with the italians and greeks it's three times, with others twice only...I hate to get mixed up!

Frum MO colleagues? Never hug or kiss, from abroad some shake, those who see me in long sleeves and a sheitl don't. But I have never had a situation where someone offers a hand and I won't take it or a shun a kiss on the hand or behind the air of my ears. That's making a boosha for someone and I won't ever do that.

Here in EY there are some older MO that shake hands and in America the MO (and not only UWS) often hug or kiss and I'm fine with that too. If I have a good male friend, not frum, not Jewish or very modern, who I haven't seen in ages and they are about to hug me, I often grab their head and give them a kiss on the top of the head like I do to small kids. They get the message.

No one has ever crossed boundaries with me and I truly doubt that other than my dh my hugs or kisses of that kind have ever "done anything" to anyone.

If it did, they are sick sick sick and that is their problem because they would also get turned on (lol!) from seeing my pocketbook or something ridiculous like that.

I am NOT a seks object except - Boruch Hashem - to my dh.

smilingmom

Thu, Mar 27 2014, 4:32 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

I am sorry but what part are you questioning?

My behavior? As an adult, I decide my behavior.
You may or may not agree with it.
My Rav and my DH may not agree with it, (though they definitely are aware of it.)
Like I said, as an adult we all have free choice to do what we want.

My expectations of "frummies"? If you are a self proclaimed frummie, you should not be insulted that I do not talk to you. I assume that when you are shopping for groceries you are thinking of fulfilling the mitzvah of preparing for shabbos, and when you are walking down the street, you are reviewing a Gemara. I would not want to disturb you.