how not to be resentful of paying full tuition

amother

Thu, May 15 2014, 12:10 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

IME, people who make really cheaper smachot (I'm assuming this is because they cannot afford more) tend to get much less money is wedding presents. I think there are a few things that contribute to this:

1) Less people
2) Tend to associate with people of equal economic status who cannot afford much
3) Their parents probably give smaller gifts if at all

No. It has nothing to do with the price of the simcha. Guests are expected to come without presents. The vast majority give nothing. We received a few random presents which I cherish.

I actually give presents when the simcha is less money because I think the couple needs it more.

amother

Thu, May 15 2014, 12:13 pm

Fox wrote:

It's not a panacea, that's for sure!

On the other hand, I was very dubious when the Chicago Kehillah Fund started, and they've been far more successful than I expected.

Their ultimate goal is to fund 1/3 the cost of educating a child, and while they're a long way from that goal, I have a friend who is the bookkeeper at one of our local schools who told me that the money from the Fund has frequently made the difference between making payroll or not.

But it does require letting go of special interests in favor of achdus, and that's a hard sell!

I think the Kehilla Fund is excellent! My DC won't be ready for school for another 2 years, but we've been giving money to the fund because we are part of a community and we feel it's our responsibility.

boysrus

Thu, May 15 2014, 1:18 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

totally true!
we are making a simcha in a few months PG, we have less money (lower income), all the friens we are inviting are in a similar income bracket to us! We are also making it small for financial reasons, and yes my parents will help out a little bit with simcha expenses, but not that much! you got it totally right saw50st8!
not complaining, I am happy with my life BH!

amother

Thu, May 15 2014, 8:14 pm

As a couple with PIF, we spend all our disposable income and savings on medical treatment. Our maaser goes towards helping others in the same situation as us. We can have treatment when we have enough money, and if not, no chance. We accept this as our reality, and don't expect others to fund our needs.

But I really object to being told that we have a community obligation to fund other people's tuition, it is like rubbing our noses in our own failure. We are isolated enough by our circumstances, there are multiple events for parents that we are naturally excluded from, from shiurim that focus on aspects of parenting to the simple joy of sitting wstching your children play in the playground on a sunny afternoon.

" Oh look, we have so many children that we can't possibly afford to pay for their schooling, you childless couple should donate your money instead to pay for our nachas."

The number of children one has should have a relationship with the number one can afford to look after in the manner one expects, in the same way that the lifestyle you lead is commensurate with your income bracket. Is it a mitzva to have 15 starving children in broken shoes with torn clothes and poor health? Or 3-4 children who are healthy, clean, educated and nurtured?

At some point, there must be an equity between total tuition cost and viable payable amount per family. Whether that is tuition going down to reasonable costs or limiting how many children one sends to school (note, I didn't say how many one has), each family needs to work out their options and plan.

Stop asking the whole world to fund your tuition, kollel, $5000 kallah bracelets and every other aspect of the desirable frum lifestyle, it is not sustainable and not fair.

saw50st8

Thu, May 15 2014, 11:41 pm

amother wrote:

You live in the most bizarre location ever. I have family and friends in the following places and have not experienced that (I am assuming you are in the US):

Brooklyn/Queens/LI/Manhattan/Riverdale/Westchester
Monsey
Lakewood
Teaneck/Bergenfield/Fairlawn
Elizabeth
Passaic
Highland Park/Edison
Lakewood
Philadelphia
Baltimore/Silver Spring
Miami

So east coast basically.

Where in the world do you live???

Tablepoetry

Fri, May 16 2014, 4:06 am

saw50st8 wrote:

True. Also at least in Israel, people tend to give wedding gifts as a kind of 'pay for your plate'. So if the wedding is held in a backyard, they'll buy a simple gift, but if it's held in a fancy hall, they'll write a cheque.
(of course there's a standard, and a community assumption as to what's considered reasonable, so if you have a simcha in a hall that costs 500 NIS per plate, you won't get it back).

Tablepoetry

Fri, May 16 2014, 4:12 am

Fox wrote:

Practically, how does something like the Kehillah fund work?
Everyone pays for public school even if they don't have kids or don't send there, because that's the law. Like it or not. Agree with public school or not.

But a 'Kehillah fund' - who decides who belongs to the kehillah and who does not? Does it include ALL Jewish schools? All Jewish dati schools? All Jewish schools of a certain hashkafa?

Honestly, there are some Jewish schools that I would NOT want to contribute to. For example, a school that teaches no secular subjects and causes its graduates to live in poverty. So I wouldn't contribute to a Kehilla fund, I'd simply directly donate to the school of my choice.

Also, how does the 'Kehilla fund' decide which school gets to use what percentage of its funds? Is it based on enrollment? On tuition? So many issues.....

Raisin

Fri, May 16 2014, 4:24 am

amother wrote:

Iyh I hope Hashem answers your tefillos soon. And then you will be struggling with this issue...

I wouldn't look at it as funding other peoples tuition. I would look at it at spreading the cost of tuition over 50 years instead of 20. In any case even if such a fund works, which by Chicagos example maybe it would, I doubt it would cover all tuition. Just enough that people can manage better.

I'm sorry there is a huge difference between asking people to fund your $5000 kallah bracelet (in what world does this happen?) and asking for a tuition discount because you can't afford food otherwise.

Raisin

Fri, May 16 2014, 4:31 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

I assume it would support all orthodox schools. Perhaps that meet certain criteria that a board gets to decide/vote on. Including a basic level of secular studies, if that is important to the board. And maybe people would be unenthusiastic about supporting a Neturei Karta leaning school.

The fairest way of funding would be to the give x amount of money for each child in school. The sum being the same if the school costs $20000 or $5000.

And I am guessing you can not make this compulsary. You can link it to shul membership or chevra fees but no one is forced to belong to those either.

amother

Fri, May 16 2014, 7:55 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

I don't see that being very efficient at all. You essentially turn all the schools into clones of one another. Isn't the point of various schools in a community to make sure each family feels comfortable with their children's education?

Schools don't need to be clones, but if the schools all got together and bought certain things it would be cheaper. This isn't tuition related per say, but why can't all the frum schools get together and buy their teachers an insurance policy that doesn't drain the teachers pay checks? Why can't when all the area schools are using the same new math books order them as one order. Why can't paper towers/toilet paper/etc be ordered in bulk to defer the cost.

Years ago in certain schools every child graduating from elementary school had a high school to go to, because if placement was not initially found the high schools and elementary schools worked together to make sure every child had a place regardless of parents ability to pay tuition. Not the case anymore, because the schools are all competing with one another for students who are able to pay full tuition. Students who should be disciplined in schools are not, because the administration knows that parents can take their kids out and send them elsewhere who will be happy to take them if the parents pay.

amother

Fri, May 16 2014, 8:04 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Of course schools buy in bulk. Would they save money by buying 200 math books instead of 50? I'm not sure. But imposing the same curriculum is dangerous. I'm very much in favor of each administration making decisions for its own student body.

I'm not saying impose the same curriculum, but when 2+ local schools are using the same math curriculum anyway and the more books you order the bigger the discount is why aren't they purchasing them together????

SRS

Fri, May 16 2014, 8:10 am

Who said the same curriculum? Some standards is different than turning into clones. Efficient use of resources can also mean expanding academic opportunities. Imagine if one school hosted a Monday night instramental music course for boys and a Tuesday night for girls and kids from the Modern Orthodox school and Chabad could take the class together.

And shared resources would be nice. For example, if you have three small schools and each brings on an art teacher, they each pay more per hour. They also each have to pay unemployment on the same first wages. They also each need to cover under separate workers comp and liability policies. Small schools often pay more to offer the things that larger schools can support. Temp agencies work because a lot of these costs are shared. There is real potential out there to at least reign in some of the costs AND provide higher quality staffing and more opportunities that parents want and that place pressure on schools to provide if resources where shared more.

amother

Fri, May 16 2014, 8:58 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

The point is, schools should not be pressured to use the math book. Or the same art teacher. Or to choose the same after school activities. Etc etc.

Crazytown amother here: The books are bought by the state here. The schools would have trouble deciding on say a certain "kosher" math book. It is not the curriculum that is the problem but the possibility of pictures of females in it. I AM NOT KIDDING. I suppose they would have to cater to the right.8 There are no art teachers! There are no after school activities! The job of a boy is to learn.

You have a benevolent view of why there are so many schools. My cynical view is they are comfortable keeping others out. It is more a matter of excluding others than teaching ones own. Why else would you have schools that as a condition for the children attending the principal has the right to inspect the moms closet!

There are cost saving measures shared by buying in bulk. Schools of a certain type already talk to each other and share ideas in crazy town. They share government grant ideas. They each contribute to a school for LD boys. I guess at that level it is more important to educate than exclude.