living in Israel | Imamother

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:04 am

Quote:

suomynona wrote:

MDM didn't you mention that you lived in yerushalayim when you first moved here? Remember we are talking about people who are coming to live here for a couple of years. It's a very different story than all of you. These people aren't interested in living among Israelis (with all the culture clashes than entails), integrating into Israeli life, and living on Israeli standards etc.

the way you say living on israeli standards sounds like a dirty word. ppl come to israel knowing that it is a different way of life, no matter where you live, you are not back in the "olt conrty" it is israel and there will be differences no matter what. and not living among israelis? im sorry but there are israelis EVERYWHERE, you are in israel.....even in arzei habira or ramat eshkol you are among israelis. if you want to be among americans come live in ramat beit shemesh, its swarming with them.
I just dont understand the whole thing.........

Quote:

they dont get paid? then how do they live there, really???????/

they are being supported by their parents (who in most cases have the means to support them). I'm sure you already realized that from all these threads, I'm not sure why you are asking.

no, I really did not know that, honest truth, I must have not read that on any threads, I thought that all kollelim paid the married guys that learned there. see what I know about kollel learning, not much.

suomynona

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:12 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

you didn't hear my expression so in what way does it sound like a dirty word ? Wink

obviously I'm not talking about people not wanting to live near ANY Israelis.
What is so hard to understand that when someone moves to a new country and culture (espeically when they are only planning on being there for 2 years and then moving back), they want to be near other people who speak their language and who they can relate to? Why do you think there is Chinatown, little Italy, etc. in America.
Fact is that an American woman who doesn't speak Hebrew well and wasn't brought up on Israeli culture, is most likely not going to become close friends with her Israeli neighbor in the first 2 years of living there. People want a social life so they want to live near the people they can most relate to.

Seraph

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:14 am

amother wrote:

The point of living is Israel is living in Jerusalem. If not, then why live there?

I'm sorry for sounding all immature, but Says who??

The point of living in E'Y is for the kedusha. Unless you're going for the social scene. And if you're coming for the social scene, you might as well stay home.

If the husband wants to davka learn in a yerushalayim kollel, there are charedi places outside of yerushalayim that people commute every day to learn in Yerushalayim...

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:16 am

suomynona wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

you didn't hear my expression so in what way does it sound like a dirty word ? Wink

you are mostly correct but I find it VERY funny that ppl think of jerusalem as being all that american. where I lived before getting marrie, rechavia, it was VERY mixed, you heard every language under the sun BUT where I live now (for me unfortunately, but others would love this) ramat beit shemesh, I hear 96% english, so to what you and the other posters have been saying about jerusalem as a sort of little italy for anglo jews, rbs is moreso than jerusalem.....

suomynona

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:17 am

Quote:

For the record, I have nothing against Israeli standards. I think it's admirable that Israelis can live on so much less.
But give me one good reason why someone who can afford it, should give up orange juice, cereal and yogurt, and air conditioning for 2 years, just because those are Israeli standards. (which they are obviously not for everyone anyway since they sell those products in the stores). That is what I mean when I say that Americans don't switch to a different lifestyle for the 2 years they are living here.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:25 am

suomynona wrote:

Quote:

ill just say that not everyone gives up a standard of living when they come to this country even if it is for aliyah/forever (whatever you want to call it) I didnt give up on air or cereal and yogurt. I bu all the same things that I grew up with, just israeli because thats whats here. and we have air and we even have screens:>
im sorry, I just never understood the standard of living thing about israel.

amother

Mon, May 14 2007, 11:59 am

If a guy is learning in kollel for two or three years and he is being supported, then he wants to learn where he learns best. Usually if a couple goes back to Israel it is bec. that is where the husband wants to learn and where he will learn best. Usually that means learning in Mir or in Briske Kollel, which does not pay the bocherim, bec. they don't have to. The guy is coming to learn where he will learn best, now where he can make the most amount of money. Usually these men know that after these two years they will have to support a family so they want the first two years to be the most meaningful. Telling a guy to go out of Yerushalayim and learn else where, that defeats the purpose. He can learn else where in America too. He wants to learn in his yeshiva, with his good chavrusos. He is not looking to support a family, he doesn't need to.

So what is wrong if a couple can live their first two years of marriage blissfully happy without any financial worries? Why should they go elsewhere just bec. it is cheaper?

Also, when a couple lives there, if they live near friends then yomim tovin time they take turns with meals and things like that. Also, the wife is not working so when she has kids she has who to hang out with and go out to lunch with.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 14 2007, 12:50 pm

amother wrote:

its very interesting, I dont know anyone who learns in the mirrer yeshiva or any of those types of yeshivot, I am just not in that world, but I do know guys that have come here for that gap year after high school and gone to palces like har etzion (ie: dati leumi yeshivot) and I dont know if they pay the married guys either, but I do know that those guys do just fine NOT being in jerusalem.
first of all, no matter where you live and for how long you live there you can make a chevra, it has so little do do with knowing the ppl before hand.
one thing that I have noticed in this country is that friends become like family, yom tov here is awesome because ppl invite others over that they have just met in order to get to know them and to enjoy yom tov together.
also about the wife not working, why is that assumed? sha can work, and even if not, what if she has no kids the entire time that they are in israel? she may want to be in a community, not just with young couples as that would most probably be annoying.

and also, why should they go elsewhere just because it is cheaper? why not just stay in america? I wont even start in on my veiw point on that..... that is a VERY sour point with me.

suomynona

Mon, May 14 2007, 1:01 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

and also, why should they go elsewhere just because it is cheaper? why not just stay in america? I wont even start in on my veiw point on that..... that is a VERY sour point with me.

please explain why you have a problem with people living in a neighborhood they can afford when it makes life more pleasant and convenient for them. How does that translate to might as well stay in America?

And as you said, you're not really familiar with the world of Mir and Brisk so you really cannot give an opinion on it.

Some people do get jobs to supplement their income and keep themselves busy, but they don't make nearly enough money to live on.

amother

Mon, May 14 2007, 2:20 pm

To the OP here,
I lived in Ramat Eshkol for two years, my husband went to a yeshiva that did not pay (not the meir a different one) we had a two bedroom, one bathroom, large living room/dining room, small kitchen, and a storage room. Which was now released for 700, a month, plus an extra 100 a month for vad habayis, we received a 90% exemption on arnona because neither my husband nor I were working. My parents supported us with 25,000 a year, which covered- rent, food, insurance, and extras here and there, flowers for shabbas, going to restaurants...This however did not cover visits back to America, or visits anywhere actually, nor clothes, nor toiletries, my parents also paid for us to have a private doctor and labor coach, plus all the furniture that we bought, because our apt was unfurnished. Included in the furniture was two airconditioners, an extra freezer, four beds, two couches, dining room chairs, and all the kitchenware (dishes, mixers, blender, toaster, microwave) plus my in laws helped pay for furniture after the baby, so lets see, thats

I did buy orange juice, and boxed cereals, and meats and chickens, I never found myself skimping on groceries, but there were other things I was used to that I did skimp on, I didn't buy clothes, or shoes, or books, and magazines.
I really felt 25K was more than enough for, rent, food, insurance, and extras, me and my husband went to a nice restaurant around twice a month, and we had money left afterwards that we saved.
Don't forget a new couple gets quite a bit from wedding presents!
Hope this helps you somewhat!

shalhevet

Mon, May 14 2007, 2:31 pm

suomynona wrote:

But give me one good reason why someone who can afford it, should give up orange juice, cereal and yogurt, and air conditioning for 2 years, just because those are Israeli standards.

But they CAN'T afford it. They are not earning anything. They are getting it from their parents. Go and read the threads here from a parent's POV. And I'm sure it's preventing lots of couples coming and/or learning at all. When they read the astronomical figures it costs they (or their parents) decide they can't afford it. Or don't even make the shidduch. If the parents are millionaires, fine. If they have one child and they are comfortably off, fine. But why should older couples collapse under the strain so that you, leading a 'life of Torah' can eat out at a nice restaurant twice a month?

I have news for you. A kolel couple in EY can live in a normal apartment, the wife can work, they can live simply and they can manage completely, or pretty much, on their own. (I would say maybe they need the parents to pay rent but the rent can be $300- $500 in many places).

suomynona

Mon, May 14 2007, 2:37 pm

Shalhevet, the people who can't afford it, stay in America where the wife usually has a job making much more than she can ever make here, and therefore the parents have to give a lot less, or nothing.

and I'm not going to explain again why an American couple coming to live in Israel for 2 years because the husband wants to learn in the Mir, are not going to live in Ofakim for $400/month, because you just don't seem to get it. For the last time, anyone given that choice will just stay in America.
You're very far removed from the situation, so I don't think you'll be able to ever understand through these people's point of view. YOu see things much more in black and white than they are.
And trust me, the people paying $1600/month can afford it, or they wouldn't be doing it.

amother

Mon, May 14 2007, 2:59 pm

suomynona wrote:

You just proved my point that 25k is not enough. The 25k you got from your parents did not include:
visits to america
clothes
private doctor
furniture
etc.

and if you had to use your wedding money, why are you saying 25k is enough?
Apartments is ramat eshkol don't go for 700 these days.

all those things you listed are "extras" besides for furnniture which is a one time thing, so I didn't include it, it not neccessities, and we didn't use our wedding money, just saying it was there for us to use just in case we didn't have enough, b''h, and my apt is still being leased for 700, we had an extremly genrous bal dirah and its a niice apt!

suomynona

Mon, May 14 2007, 3:23 pm

amother wrote:

The OP specifically said she wants to live on Sorotzkin (which is minimum $1000) and wants to visit America at least once a year. Clothes can be necessity - such as maternity clothes and baby clothes. And you obviously got lucky with a baal dira. Most baal diras are not out to be generous, they're out to milk the Americans as much as possible.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 14 2007, 3:28 pm

suomynona wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

and also, why should they go elsewhere just because it is cheaper? why not just stay in america? I wont even start in on my veiw point on that..... that is a VERY sour point with me.

I have a problem with ppl coming to israel and taking advantage of all of the good things that it does have to offer without them giving anything back....
as well as the ability for the landloords in those areas where the americans come to live for a year or a few and the landlords price up the rent sooooooooooooo much that ONLY american young couples can even afford living there....its unfair for the other ppl, israeli or other, that want to live in that neighborhood but can not afford it.
when I said why not just stay in america that was more along the lines of the fact that I do not like the whole "learn for two years and then start life" attitude. but I am not going to go tere because I dont want to have an argument about it.

Health is a Virture

Mon, May 14 2007, 3:39 pm

a few points to add...

I don't really understand what all the argueing is about. Many of us just don't relate to this type of couple, but there are many who are happily living in Yerushalayim. For them living on what we would call an "American standard", they are finding it a sacrifice. Their apartments though astronomically high are very small...they are used to mansions. While in America they drove BMWs and Lexuses, here they take cabs. yes, to many of us, a cab is a luxury, but for them, this is difficult. Walking a block away to the makolet (which might be 5 times the price as the local supermarket) is horribly difficult...they are used to having a live in maid, and just once a week help (even though they dont' work) is a sacrifice for Torah. We don't relate, but it doesn't mean they can't choose to do what they want. The parents have so much money, that 40K is a drop in the bucket (how much do you think they pay for their children's tuitions?!)

Ugh, there is a bird upstairs with me....it came in during the day and it can't figure out how to get out!!!!! Ah!!

Also, oen should realize that if they are receiving money from their parents then they would probably have to write that down and so they wouldn't receive a discount from arnona, but maybe it's different in yerushalayim?

One could spend as little as $8-10K a year, but this amother is not looking how to cut corners...she just wants an accurate assessment of how much it will cost.

PinkandYellow

Mon, May 14 2007, 3:43 pm

Quote:

suomynona, I travel in the same circles as you, and this is what I'll say about parents who can supposedly afford it (the whole support in y-m thing). Often, ppl look like they can afford it, but really can't. for ex., I know s/o extremely wealthy, the father is a successful cancer dr. poshut, they can afford to support a married son in ramat eshkol for a few years. except, they also have another married son living in queens, and another kid in college with 40k tuition and attending expenses. after you factor all that in, do you really think they can afford it? they can't and they're cracking under the pressure bec everyone thinks they could. there are many ppl like that. actually, I think its nice taht the parents want to support, and I understand not suggesting to couples to lower their standards much, but I do think they would do well to at least budget minimally. there are many easy ways to save money, without making major changes or doing without major things- the problem is where the couples are actually wasting money, spending it like its free, because it is.

and my point about the mir, is just that if a couple wanted to help out, the husband can probably find another yeshiva that pays that is just as suitable. dh thinks alot of it is the name- "yeah, my son, he's learning in the Mir Y-m". like a prestige thing.