living in Israel | Imamother

suomynona

Mon, May 14 2007, 3:54 pm

MosheDovid'sMom wrote:

suomynona, I travel in the same circles as you, and this is what I'll say about parents who can supposedly afford it (the whole support in y-m thing). Often, ppl look like they can afford it, but really can't.
...and my point about the mir, is just that if a couple wanted to help out, the husband can probably find another yeshiva that pays that is just as suitable. dh thinks alot of it is the name- "yeah, my son, he's learning in the Mir Y-m". like a prestige thing.

I agree that in the kollel system, parents are sometimes pressured into giving more money than they can afford, but I think that is a global problem, not necessarily unique to e"y, except that the wife usually doesn't have a career to supplement.
And I totally disagree about the Mir. Well, I can only speak for myself. But if my husband couldn't live within commuting distance from the Mir, I don't know that he wouldn't choose Lakewood or soemthing else in the US over a small kollel in the hics of e"y.

PinkandYellow

Mon, May 14 2007, 4:21 pm

Quote:

But if my husband couldn't live within commuting distance from the Mir, I don't know that he wouldn't choose Lakewood or soemthing else in the US over a small kollel in the hics of e"y.

I'm sure you realize taht there are many kollelim not in the hics of e"y, but rather also in y-m.

to all the ppl that question the kollel system as it is now, on this thread, on many other threads and in real life, I will say only this: this system was set up, with alot of forethought, by our rabbanim, as being suitable, for whatever reason, for our times. I do not pretend to know their reasons, as I never looked into that much, however, I will presume that they know what they are doing, most likely more then us, they are probably looking at a bigger picture, adn tehy definitely have thought of all the arguments that all the rest of you have thought of. and they still set it up, this system of parents/wives supporting learning guys. so I will trust our gedolim that let this system continue, for whatever necessary reasons. possibly they see this as the only way to really continue talmud torah in our days.

PinkandYellow

Mon, May 14 2007, 4:39 pm

Quote:

For OUR times, not for before or after.

As far as I can tell, I'm living in our times, what does before and after have to do with anything? ppl ask me, your father learns in kollel, your husband learns in kollel, how will your kids learn in kollel? and I say, I don't know, maybe they will, maybe they won't, my son is 2, I'm certainly not thinking 20 years ahead, and don't think I should be.

Quote:

but while we follow rabbanim on many things, rabbanim are not foolproof.

of course they aren't fool proof, but they do have extra siyata dishmaya when paskening, and it is still our obligation to follow them, as the avg orthodox yid is not da'as torah.

Quote:

And if I would actually look into it, I am sure I could find enough rabbanim who would speak out against it too.

eilu v'eilu. what's your point?

Quote:

Great, so we should continue talmud torah, and begin poverty too?

maybe yes. if the gedolim think that this is what is necessary. There is a concept, you know, of mesirus nefesh for learning torah.

MOM222

Mon, May 14 2007, 6:52 pm

amother wrote:

Does anyone know how much it cost a young couple to move to Israel for two years after they are married? I want to know living decently, not very simply and not lavishly, the middle of the road. Like how much is an apartment and stuff like that? I am just curious how much support such a couple would need? Any info. would be appreciated, thanks.

To answer your basic question.

Rent (sorotzkin) $1,200
Live comfortable, take taxi (not buses) buy american goods, cleaning help 4-6 hours a week, cell phone, dsl line... about $1,500 a month.

tickets to america can be usually included in that. However if you plan on going out 1-2 a week out to eat and such. you should include another 3,000 a year for tickets.

edited to add this doesnt include shopping you would do in america - but then you could rent out your aprt.

whtever you do dont move to belz. rent for 2 bedroom starts at 1400 w/o furniture

amother

Tue, May 15 2007, 1:06 am

" I'm certainly not thinking 20 years ahead, and don't think I should be."s
I think thats a scewed way of thinking. You prefer to wake up in 20 yrs and see no $ in the till?

"of course they aren't fool proof, but they do have extra siyata dishmaya when paskening, and it is still our obligation to follow them, as the avg orthodox yid is not da'as torah."
True, however for any issue you will prob find one rav that says one thing and one rav who says another... so choosing the rav that you want is your choice but it doesnt mean he is right or wrong.

"eilu v'eilu. what's your point?"
That rabbanim are foolproof and you need to use your head and heart too.

"maybe yes. if the gedolim think that this is what is necessary. There is a concept, you know, of mesirus nefesh for learning torah.[/quote]
If there needs to be mesirus nefesh. If you could make life a little easier, mesiras nefesh (not just for you, but your kids too who might not have chosen such a life) might not be necessary.,

PinkandYellow

Tue, May 15 2007, 2:17 am

Quote:

" I'm certainly not thinking 20 years ahead, and don't think I should be."s
I think thats a scewed way of thinking. You prefer to wake up in 20 yrs and see no $ in the till?

actually, you are taking my comment out of context. 20 yrs down the line refers to how my kids will live, and that, imo, is not a factor for how I will live my life. just bec dh is in kollel now, and will be for another x amt of yrs, doesn't mean I need to support my kids in kollel. in fact, I can tell you now, that even if we strike it rich and can fully support kids in kollel, we almost for sure won't. help out, maybe, but that's just about it. I don't feel obligated to insure that my kids will live a comfy kollel lifestyle. if my kids want to learn in kollel, they will do what many others, incl my parents and dh and I, do, and that is work for it.

Quote:

"maybe yes. if the gedolim think that this is what is necessary. There is a concept, you know, of mesirus nefesh for learning torah.

If there needs to be mesirus nefesh. If you could make life a little easier, mesiras nefesh (not just for you, but your kids too who might not have chosen such a life) might not be necessary.,[/quote]

are you saying this bec the kids might not be happy being poor? if so, I don't think its a valid point, mainly because I don't believe that being happy is proportionate to how many "things" you have. also, who said that kids anywhere are happy with the lifestyle choices their parents make? parents try hard and do their best and hope it turns out ok, with lots of siyata d'shmaya.

amother

Tue, May 15 2007, 2:26 am

"20 yrs down the line refers to how my kids will live, and that, imo, is not a factor for how I will live my life."
I understand. If you ask me, I personally find that a problem to think that way. If you think the way you lead your life doesnt affect your kids' life in more than one way, I highly disagree.

" just bec dh is in kollel now, and will be for another x amt of yrs, doesn't mean I need to support my kids in kollel."
Thats just the problem. You are much less likely to be ABLE to support them. So it's lovely that our generation sits there with their hands out to their parents, but they arent thinking of how hard their kids will have it.

"in fact, I can tell you now, that even if we strike it rich and can fully support kids in kollel, we almost for sure won't. help out, maybe, but that's just about it."
Explain me the logic of ppl in our generation taking everything from their parents, but not even trying to do the same for one's own kids.

" if my kids want to learn in kollel, they will do what many others, incl my parents and dh and I, do, and that is work for it.
Problem is most of our kollel generation uses their parents money to support at least half of their needs, and next generation wont be able to do that.

"are you saying this bec the kids might not be happy being poor?"
I dont think we need to introduce mesiras nefesh if it could be easily (comparitive to next generation) avoided at this point.
I also dont think its right for us to make a decision that they be poor if we could avoid it.

" also, who said that kids anywhere are happy with the lifestyle choices their parents make?"
The question is if parents THINK of their kids' future or just plunge ahead thinking of what is best for THEM.

amother

Tue, May 15 2007, 3:41 am

DH and I live comfortably: not the bare minimums, but not lavishly either. We buy whatever we want (even the most expensive brands at the store if we like them), but we don't buy what we don't need. For example, I only walk into a clothing store once a year to go shopping. We live in a Tel Aviv suburb and pay $630 for a 3 room apartment (2 small bedrooms and a living room). I think we spend about 700 NIS on food each month: 500 at a once-a-month trip to the super, and once a week we stock up on fresh fuits, veggies, and dairy products. DH eats chiken on Shabbos, but besides that we eat vegetarian. Our credit card bills come to about $1000 every month (including all ultilities, telephone bills, etc.) Of course the credit cards also include the food expenses. We take $200 out of the ATM each month. Besides that, the only other major expense we have is plane tix to the States once a year. DH learns in Kollel, but bc of various other funding he receives, he actually brings in a good salary, I think about 9000 NIS a month. I have a professional job (I.e. not telemarketing) and make 5750 NIS each month. (We try to put a good chunk into savings each month.) While telemarketing jobs are easy to find and don't require Hebrew, if you're willing to take the enegery to look for a professional job (and yes, there are jobs that don't require any Hebrew) you can earn a good bit more.

B'Hatzlacha!

shalhevet

Tue, May 15 2007, 4:18 am

I have been really thinking about this thread, and I am very disturbed. I know many, many kolel families both Israeli and chutznik but this is the first time I have heard of the lifestyle Su and (mostly amothers) some others describe.

I know families living simply, many times the wife works, and if she doesn't they live even more simply (read: poverty). The men learn many, many hours a day and often get stipends from more than one kolel (eg also go to night kolel and/or Friday kolel and/or do special exams on what they're learning etc). The women are busy working and/or raising children. They are not interested in restaurants, trips etc (maybe in ben hazmanim to refresh their batteries).

Suddenly I am hearing about a new world. A young couple come to EY for a year or two for an extended holiday. He can only learn in Yeshiva X or he won't be able to learn. Now, if someone would tell me that for Reuven or Shimon, Yeshiva X is the most suitable, I might believe them. But now you're telling me that for dozens, or hundreds of young men, only this yeshiva is the 'right one'. Sorry, I don't buy that. What, the same yeshiva is exactly right for outgoing guys and shy guys, for those who are more and less wordly, for high achievers and those who are struggling...? And nothing else will do???

Then, if they don't live in the most expensive block in Yerushalayim they may as well stay in Brooklyn. So what are they coming for? To tour? To meet their friends? For the social life? To have a 'spiritual experience'?? I thought they were coming to learn. Maybe actually other places might prove less distracting. Maybe if they were in kolel in Ofakim or Netivot or Rechovot or Zichron or Bet Shemesh or Brachfeld, they would find that there are the same gemorras and shtenders. Maybe they might actually find that their chavrusa is more interested in his learning than in which restaurant to go to that evening.

And people are eating out twice a month. So when do they have time? (Apart from the money) And taking taxis? To where? I heard they came to learn.

It has been asked why someone should have anything against people living an expensive lifestyle if they can afford it?

Firstly, if they really cared about learning, they would realise that they can live on half that amount and then they could learn for four years instead of two.

Secondly, I have seen threads here from the parents' POV. Doesn't sound like all the parents can afford it, but they have no choice to work all day and night while their daughter does nothing all day. She's entitled to her two year holiday of course.

Thirdly, what about all the couples who never get to come at all, because of the expense. If the 'norm' was lowered and parents felt they could give their children say $1,000 a month, then probably many more could come and learn 'Toras Eretz Yisroel"

Fourthly, if you start to read a few mussar seforim you will see that a life of luxury and Torah do not go hand in hand. People who 'can't manage' without food x, brand Y or trips in the middle of the zman are never, ever going to become talmidei chachomim.

In reply to those who claim that this 'system' cannot work for another generation. Well, I know many couples who are already onto the second generation. Because in EY it works differently. The parents help the couple to buy an apartment. Usually some or all of the mortgage is the couple's responsibility with the parents giving the downpayment. No they don't usually live in Yerushalayim or BB, unless the parents are wealthy, but in places like Kiryat Sefer, Brachfeld, Betar or the south. The parents usually help on an informal basis -say, bringing them food, maybe buying some clothes/toys for the grandchildren. This is also hard for a kolel couple to do, but the wife often has a better job by then. Also the mother may help out babysitting etc which also saves money. The children live simply, just like they grew up. The wife tries to get a job (not always successfully) from the beginning.

And to the poster who told MDM that she's not providing for her children's future. Are you providing for your children's future? Is your son learning as much Torah as he can? Is he being given the tools to become a talmid chacham? Are you giving him the opportunity to serve Hashem in the best way he is able to? Parnassa is from Hashem. Torah requires time and effort to give our children the very best.

amother

Tue, May 15 2007, 6:17 am

Shalhevet, I understand much of what you're saying. Am I even agree with much of it, but your tone sounds quite harsh. Let me come to my own defense for example. I'm the amother who posted before you. Actually, I posted as amother, not bc I'm embarased or ashamed about our lifestyle, but bc I think we might be more financially comfortble than others here and I don't want to draw attention to myself for that.

Granted, we are not the typical kollel couple that you are talking about. My DH is Israeli and we live here permanantely. He learns at an out-of-the-way kollel, not the one or two you say ALL feel that they MUST study at. We support ourselves, without any help from our parents.

You say that a life of luxury and Torah do not go hand in hand. That's a very general statement, and obviously there are so many ways to define "luxury," but I'm suprised by how you define it. I just want to point out that if a couple has the financial means (like we do, BH) to indulge once in a while, it's ok. Just bc we go out to a restaurant once a month, doesn't mean DH does not take his learning very seriously. Just because I buy a more expensive brand of ketchup doesn't mean I don't take my yiddishkeit and living in EY seriously.

Please be careful when you make these kinds of statements, lest they not offend someone who BH has the means to treat themselves once in a while to something special.

PinkandYellow

Tue, May 15 2007, 6:43 am

"Please be careful when you make these kinds of statements, lest they not offend someone who BH has the means to treat themselves once in a while to something special."

when we say luxury, we are talking ppl that eat ckn/meat 3 times a week for dinner, take taxis to the dr, geula and anywhere else they have to go, easily shop at more expensive stores without making an effort to go somewhere cheaper, cleaning help- and all this on s/o else's cheshbon, s/o else paying.

to previous amother: if you work hard and decide to spend your $$ on xyz, you are entitled. these ppl are choosing to spend other ppl's hard earned money on xyz, w/o even the effort of budget.

also, previous amother, what do you by professional jobs (not telemarketing) that an eng-speaker can do w\o hebrew?

Last edited by PinkandYellow on Tue, May 15 2007, 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total