What is the secret that creates respect and fear?

FranticFrummie

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 3:30 am

the world's best mom wrote:

I make them listen every single time. I tell my 2 year old, "Put that down." He smiles and says "no" or "why?" So I tell him again and I take it out of his hand and put it down for him. He hits dd repeatedly on the head, I say to stop and then I pull his hand off. I say come here, he runs away, I catch him and bring him where I wanted him. Consistency is the key- I can never decide I'm too lazy to go run after him and I'll let it go this time. If I say something, it has to happen.

As you may very well know, my children are not angels. Not by a long shot. Ds has been through some very rough years, bullying and wrecking. But every single time I witness a misbehavior, I am there helping him correct it. He ALWAYS gets a time out after hurting someone and has to make them feel better afterwards. I never let him just run away. I chased him and held him and made him do what he was told. He doesn't even try running away anymore. He knows I won't allow it.

At this point, he has become MUCH better already. My girls may sometimes cry when I make them go to bed or clean up of whatever, but they listen. My oldest is too big to force physically, but I don't need to force either of my girls physically anymore for anything, because I did so much of it when they were 2-5. It's hard work, but it pays off.

Gosh, I sound so mean here. But I'm really not. I play with my kids a lot and have a very close relationship with them. We have a great time together. But when they want to not obey my commands, I teach them that it's not okay.

I love this! I do the same thing. If I let something slip by me, I pay the consequences later when DD thinks she can get away with it again. My fault, not hers!

I try really hard for saving yelling for dire emergencies, like someone's about to be hit by a car, or the house is on fire CV'S. Sometimes I yell in general if I'm really frustrated and in a lot of pain, but I always explain that I'm not mad at her, but at the situation and the fact that my body is not cooperating.

If DD says "please" for something, I jump up and run to get it for her, and tell her "I love that 'please', it really makes me happy to hear that." If she just demands, I say "Excuse me? Can you think of a nicer way to ask?" Every. Single. Time.

If she's in big trouble, I actually lower my voice. It's way scarier than yelling, and she knows I mean business. It also makes her have to work to hear what I'm saying. Yelling can be tuned out a lot easier than a low voice. Try it, it's amazingly efficient. They may not catch on the first few times, but they will listen eventually.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that if your kids have ADHD, sensory issues, or auditory processing issues, then it's possible that hardly any of this advice will help. Some kids are just wired differently, and can be harder to handle than others. That does not make YOU a bad parent, it just means that you need a different set of tools in your parenting toolbox.

Oh, and the years between age 2 and 4 are a free for all. Do the best you can, and pray you survive. Wink

someoneelse

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 7:40 am

Okay, I haven't read all the responses and I already want to tell you what I think, so here goes-

I agree that you have to believe in yourself and that you are respect worthy in order to get it.
Also, that being consistent is major - like the world's best mom said-

"Consistency is the key. Once you say something, you MUST stick with it (calmly). Therefore, choose your battles wisely. If you don't think it's worth sticking to your guns throughout a difficult tantrum, then don't start that battle in the first place."

But most of the descriptions of kids who completely listen sound frightening- those kids sound like they might listen, but hate their parents at the same time.
I know a family that all the kids listen to the parents but the minute the kids get old enough they don't want anything to do with the parents anymore.

amother

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 11:45 pm

I certainly don't claim to have the answer, but here are some of my thoughts. I believe my kids respect and love my husband and I very very much. We're all extremely close. I don't want to say that they fear us, because I really don't believe that, but I do think that they are extremely aware of what our reaction would be to inappropriate behaviour, and they fear that. Here's our formula:

1) My DH and I spend a LOT of time with our kids. Like, a LOT. We are extremely engaged with them and talk to them about our feelings and expectations and life all the time. We are our children's #1 everything in their lives, and certainly their main influence.

2) We are explicit in telling them what we find acceptable and what we do not find acceptable. And we are 100% consistent. There has never ever been a single time in our children's lives that they've been rude, disrespectful and chutzpadik without us calling them on it. I frequently see little kids hitting their parents or being extremely rude, and the parents do not react. It's shocking to me.

3) We believe that every child will exhibit all types of bad behaviours once because that's human nature. We also believe that our job as parents is to teach them that VERY FIRST TIME about how we feel about their actions. So, each of my children has had precisely one tantrum in their entire lives. As soon as they had their first (and only) tantrum, we went so crazy on them that they learned it was a completely unacceptable behaviour and never did it again. They cried and stomped and threw themselves to the floor. We screamed and told them how inappropriate it was, sent them to the corner, and talked SEVERAL times that night about what a big deal their terrible behaviour was. For us, it worked. None of our kids have ever done that again. The same goes for disrespectful talk. Our kids tried it once, and that's it, because they learned that my DH and I would go 'nuclear' on them for such behaviour.

I don't want to give the impression that we're a super strict couple. I actually believe that because of the fact that we are so firm and so clear on our intolerance of poor behaviour, our household is extremely happy, open, carefree and joyful 98% of the time. We don't deal with a lot of the discipline issues we see other people facing. By teaching our kids very clearly what behaviour will be accepted and what behaviour is just out of the question, they don't bother with the latter and we're all just happy and having fun a lot of the time.

I do not know if this is right for others, but it's just what I thought of when I read your post.

the world's best mom

Fri, Sep 05 2014, 12:25 am

amother wrote:

So, each of my children has had precisely one tantrum in their entire lives. As soon as they had their first (and only) tantrum, we went so crazy on them that they learned it was a completely unacceptable behaviour and never did it again. They cried and stomped and threw themselves to the floor. We screamed and told them how inappropriate it was, sent them to the corner, and talked SEVERAL times that night about what a big deal their terrible behaviour was. For us, it worked. None of our kids have ever done that again.

I'm rather confused. All children tantrum, and I'll admit it's annoying. But do you really consider it to be misbehaving? I consider it being very sad and being too young and immature to express the sadness in an appropriate manner. I agree that we should be helping our children learn better ways to express their sadness, but it takes time and maturity.

Most (all?) children throw their first tantrum when they are toddlers. They get sad about a lot of things and they don't have the words to express themselves. They want to splash in the toilet and they want to do everything themselves and they want to go out without clothing and they want to take their shoes off in the park and they want a whole lot of things that they can't have. Do you punish your two year olds for crying when they are sad? And if so, you say they never tantrum again- well what DO they do when they are sad? I can't picture a two year old saying, "I am very upset because I really wanted to put on my diaper by myself and you didn't let." No, they can't do that. So they tantrum.

When my 9 year old throws a tantrum, I tell her she must calm down and if she's still tantrumming by the count of three she will have to go into her room until she's ready to act appropriately. I wouldn't do that with my two year old though- when he tantrums I hold him, hug him and say the words for him that he is trying to say: "I know you're so sad because you wanted to open the door by yourself, but you couldn't reach the lock, so Mommy had to do it. I know that made you so sad." That will hopefully help him learn how to say what he means as he grows up, but it won't happen this year.

Mommastuff

Fri, Sep 05 2014, 10:21 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Another thing to keep in mind, is that if your kids have ADHD, sensory issues, or auditory processing issues, then it's possible that hardly any of this advice will help. Some kids are just wired differently, and can be harder to handle than others. That does not make YOU a bad parent, it just means that you need a different set of tools in your parenting toolbox:

OK, so what's you're advice to keep a child with ADHD in check? Yes, consistency is vital, but it's not always what helps the situation, you need other tools too.
They sometimes have little control over their actions.

Chayalle

Fri, Sep 05 2014, 11:32 am

amother wrote:

That's very nice for you and your family, but maybe you can begin to understand the dilemma that some people have when both parents are NOT on the same page and one or the other has unreasonable expectations for what children should be doing. Very hard for parents to work together and show mutual respect in those circumstances.

If you are not on the same page as your spouse, or if one spouse has unreasonable expectations of the children, it's time for outside intervention - a Rav/professional needs to be consulted.

I (that's in caps!) wouldn't be able to sit still listening to DH read from a sefer for 1/2 hour straight. I prefer more of a give-and-take type of atmosphere - my DH will ask a question, the kids and I will offer opinions, and he takes it from there....gets everyone involved rather than spacing out.

marina

Fri, Sep 05 2014, 1:50 pm

I didn't read all the pages, but the main tips for respect are 1) have a very clear system of consequences and 2) give the direction and walk away. Do not engage with the child or suggest in anyway that you are waiting around to hear their feedback on your directive.

Example:

Quote:

Parent: please clean your room before anymore computer time.

Child: noooo, I will do it later, nooo, I am in the middle of a game, noooo

Parent: it doesn't matter, I said to clean your room, so clean your room now

Child: oh, you are always so mean to me, my brother doesn't have to clean up his room, it is a total mess, but you always make me do it, nooooo.

Parent: Don't talk back! Don't tattle on your brother! Go clean your room!

Child: you always yell at me, I hate you!

cue: tantrum

Contrast:

Quote:

Parent: please clean your room before anymore computer time.

Child: nooo, I will do it later, I am in the middle of a game, noooo.

Parent: It's up to you. You know the consequence for not following directions, so I guess it's your choice. Going to the backyard now, see you later!

Parent walks out.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Sep 05 2014, 3:31 pm

Right.

Expectation is hugely powerful. If it has never occurred to you in a million years that you wouldn't be obeyed, you will be obeyed.

Mostly.

One labors hard, inside, to keep all other possibilities out of one's mind. Of course you will be obeyed.

Marina is right that any waiting to see if one is obeyed creates that possibility. Don't do that. Be calmly certain you will be obeyed.

And usually you will.

Why do people turn out how they do? Because their parents expected them to.

Expectation is a huge force of nature.

And, with this (artificial) certainty, comes a pleasant manner. Pleasantness is necessary.

Because an annoyed manner implies that you have something to be annoyed about: not being obeyed. Ooops. Bad. You weren't supposed to admit that thing existed. So, have the cheerful manner of someone who is always obeyed, and you will be.

Gitch

Fri, Sep 05 2014, 3:48 pm

marina wrote:

Contrast:

Quote:

While I completely agree with being unequivocal with our expectations, not being wishy washy or getting into power struggle arguments, I disagree with your example.

As an adult, I don't like being interrupted mid activity, like getting a drink for child A while doing homework with child B. why do we expect differently from kids? Yes his room has to be cleaned, and I won't argue about it, but why make him stop mid-game? I find it to be disrespectful to my child. And yes, I believe my children are deserving of respect.

So how about:

That looks like a fun game you're playing. (You're connecting to him very personally, then...)
You're room needs to be cleaned today, so when this level is done, please go take care of it. Let me know when you're done, so we can go outside to play.

amother

Sun, Sep 07 2014, 12:07 am

the world's best mom wrote:

I don't know what to say, other than to honestly tell you that our method seems to have been effective with our kids. I've never really bought into the whole principle that tantrums only happen because a child doesn't have the emotional maturity to stop it. I really do believe that it's a behavioural issue, like others. We've treated it as such, and the result has been that our children just don't have them.

And again, our kids are not scared of us. We're not draconian-like in our discipline. We're just firm from an early age, and it seems to have worked well. I absolutely could never ever tolerate my children having tantrums. It always just seems like an issue of being mad because they didn't get what they wanted, rather than some deeper emotional issue or inability to express emotion.

Saying "I hate you" is expressing emotion, and yet it's totally unacceptable. Not all emotional expression is good or appropriate or allowed. And I don't think that teaching my children that means I'm stunting their emotional development, as some people have suggested (not in this thread).

amother

Sun, Sep 07 2014, 12:20 am

The World's Best Mom,
I'm the same poster as above. And I just wanted to add that there's a big difference between crying because you're disappointed, and throwing yourself to the floor, kicking/screaming, hitting parents and screaming at the top of your lungs. Our kids are allowed to cry when they're disappointed, but we do not allow them to take it to an unacceptable level (where they're clearly trying to just exert their will and embarrass us) where they're making a scene. That, to me, is a behavioural/discipline issue. And I really do believe that even two year olds can absolutely be taught to keep their emotions in check like that. Crying is OK. The rest is not.

amother

Sun, Sep 07 2014, 12:35 am

amother wrote:

not to hijack the thread, but I have a problem with this.

My husband reads out loud from a sefer at the shabbos table. He can read for 30 minutes straight. He does not make an effort to bring it down to the children's level or make it interesting. He also expects everyone to sit quietly until he's finished, and he wants me to enforce it.

I find it very hard to do this. I don't want to teach my kids to disrespect their father and I try to sit quietly myself but I think it's a bit much to expect little kids to sit through a recital from a sefer for a half-hour.

Yes, I have asked him to either explain it on their level or shorten it but he says he "doesn't know how to do it" and I should say the DT if I can do it better. the truth is I could but I don't want to usurp his place. I feel that the father should say the DT at the shabbos table.

We found a solution b"H. We bought a book of DT for kids. So my husband can still read aloud and doesn't have to adapt the DT himself, but since it's written on a kids' level with stories and mesholim it's more interesting for them (and it's shorter).

the world's best mom

Sun, Sep 07 2014, 1:41 am

amother wrote:

a- I can pretty much guarantee that children do not tantrum in attempt to embarrass their parents. Thinking of it that way will make you over-react to them.

b-I agree that there are tantrums that are not acceptable and not age appropriate. When a child says I hate you, s/he is using verbal skills, but in the wrong way. That is not acceptable.

But, my 2 year old throws himself on the floor often when he is upset (B"h not too often). He started doing that at around 18 months old. He does it when he's home alone with me, so how could he be trying to embarrass me? Do you really think that a one year old sees crying on the floor as an attempt to embarrass his parents so he can get his way? You think I should be punishing him for it?

I'm assuming you have no children with special needs. Well, I do. Ds was totally non-verbal until he was 3 1/2. Now, at 6 years old, his speech is still delayed and difficult to understand. He is also a very intense child. For him, throwing himself on the floor would have been a good tantrum. Instead, he used to hit me, push me, and scream at me. I can guarantee that he would have done the same even if I punished him for it, only he would have felt horrible that I don't understand him. Personally, I think that while my parenting leaves a lot to be desired in many areas, he is at least lucky that I didn't punish him every time he got upset. Instead, I stayed calm and said, "You cannot push Mommy. I can't listen to you when you are screaming. Let's calm down so we can talk about what's making you upset." Within a minute, he was usually ready to speak calmly. (After he learned to talk, obviously.) He still needed me to feed him the words he needed to tell me before he could say it. Only recently, he made a lot of progress and can usually tell me on his own now. Therefore, he hardly throws tantrums like that anymore.

So when is a tantrum a negative behavior? IMO, you have to know your child's capabilities. When a child is verbal enough to express himself, the tantrums should not be tolerated. However, I still don't think they should be punished for it. Only given time in a quiet place to cool down a bit and try again.

amother

Sun, Sep 07 2014, 7:28 am

the world's best mom wrote:

Ok, so obviously having a child with a special need is a whole different ball game. I'm not sure how you could've thought it was a good idea to compare parenting ideas without first divulging that.

My kids were actually verbal extremely early, and maybe the reason was that I did not allow them to express themselves physically, but rather only with words. I really don't know.
Having said that, a child with a speech delay will react so differently than a child without one, so we can't compare. BH, you seem to have found what works well for your son and are doing right be him in persisting! Good on you!

amother

Sun, Sep 07 2014, 8:09 am

the world's best mom wrote:

My current 2 year old has no special needs. He is quite verbal for his age. He still throws himself on the floor and that's still fine with me. He can't say things well enough to express his sadness, so he tantrums.

My special needs 6 year old is definitely different, but similar to a two year old in the aspect of throwing tantrums because he couldn't express himself.

I really do believe that because tantrums are "fine with you", you're likely to see a whole lot more of them than I am. And I really don't know if that's an emotionally healthy thing or not.

rivksi

Mon, Sep 08 2014, 12:32 am

[quote="the world's best mom"]I make them listen every single time. I tell my 2 year old, "Put that down." He smiles and says "no" or "why?" So I tell him again and I take it out of his hand and put it down for him. He hits dd repeatedly on the head, I say to stop and then I pull his hand off. I say come here, he runs away, I catch him and bring him where I wanted him. Consistency is the key- I can never decide I'm too lazy to go run after him and I'll let it go this time. If I say something, it has to happen"

[quote]

I have a question on this method - my two year dd ( only child) has been giving is a run for our money. Aside for that she doesn't sleep and that she just learned how to climb out of her crib (we'll leave this matter for another time) I am having a hard time disciplining. She is adorable and talks tons and just casually disregard most things I say. I understand the importance of following through which is why I try to enforce the things I ask of her such as I quoted above. My question is how to enforce the "do nots" I tell her. Like do not bite, do not throw food etc. it's not like I can pick her up and make her do it as by a " put this down" command

the world's best mom

Mon, Sep 08 2014, 7:15 am

You're right that the "Lo Saasei" commands are more difficult. Those need to be dealt with immediately when they occur. I make my child rectify the situation, and if he has hurt someone, he needs a time out. So if a kid throws food, I make him clean it up. If he bites, he gets a time out and then has to make the person feel better. the trick is that the consequence has to be consistent- happening every single time he misbehaves- and immediate- not ten minutes later.

Although you say your child is two years old. I did these things with my older ds when he was two, because they were happening a few times a minute- or so it seemed. I have never given my younger ds time out because he is really sweet and well behaved and rarely hurts people. For him rectifying the situation is enough.