Taking Babies and Children to hear the Ten Commandments

Tefila

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:28 pm

Quote:

hakhel is another time every single Jew was present in shul- men, women, and babies too.

Yep, there we go Tongue Out

gryp

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:32 pm

I mixed it up- R' Yochanan ben Zakkai was the teacher of R' Yehoshua, and is the one who said "ashrei yoladito" about him. When his mother was expecting him she went around to all the talmidei chachamim and asked for a blessing that her son also be a talmid chacham. Then when he was born she hung his cradle in the Beis Midrash.
(how did she know she was having a boy?)

sarahd

Mon, Jun 06 2005, 4:11 am

Maybe she had an ultrasound? Very Happy

Motek

Mon, Jun 06 2005, 1:33 pm

Quote:

When his mother was expecting him she went around to all the talmidei chachamim and asked for a blessing that her son also be a talmid chacham

source?

gryp

Mon, Jun 06 2005, 1:37 pm

Motek, YOU told me that one!
Very Happy

Quote:

the tribute paid to R' Yehoshua by his teacher Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai- Pirkei Avos 2: . "Ashrei yoladito" - "Fortunate is the woman who gave birth to him," is what he said of him. Rabbi Ovadia of Bartenura explains the tribute thus: "She was responsible for his becoming
a sage. When she was pregnant with him she visited all the houses of Torah study in her city and asked the scholars to pray for her yet unborn child to become a sage. From the day he was born she did not remove his cradle from the Beis Midrash so that no sound but Torah should enter his ears."

TzenaRena

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 1:39 am

sarahd wrote:

I don't think the people in shul will appreciate having my chattering and/or screaming baby there.... Wink

It's not about appreciation or what people might say... If the Rebbe considers this to be a re-enactment of Maamad Har Sinai and Kabbolas Hatorah, then there is something much greater, and more profound of major significance and impact for Klall Yisroel taking place. Babies, or children of any age are not less important to be there than any of the adults. They belong there, together with us. (Even if one cannot have the luxury of a separate minyan for kriah after the main one).

On a personal note, I brought all my babies to shul, not only for Tekios and Aseres Hadibros, but for every YomTov, as I see countless others do. Some of my children were just barely weeks old when they attended the Aseres Hadibros . Also Shabbos, as soon as they could walk that far (all of two blocks).until the next baby came along . Naturally we weren't able to stay for the entire davening.... My kids are now older and BH follow the davening and Kriah beautifully, and don't run outside to play like some of their peers.

miriam

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 1:47 am

There is a playroom in a separate room in the back of the ladies section. (I think it's soundproof!) I think it's a great situation b/c you can send your kids in their when they NEED to be quiet or are hyper. I try to keep them by me the whole time. It also helps that the ladies section is on the second floor above the men's side.

sarahd

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 3:37 am

SaraYehudis wrote:

sarahd wrote:

I don't think the people in shul will appreciate having my chattering and/or screaming baby there.... Wink

It's not about appreciation or what people might say

But it is. Children have no chiyuv to be in shul or to daven. Neither do their mothers. When a child misbehaves, it disturbs the kavana of the adults who are there to daven. This is wrong. You want to bring your children for Aseres Hadibros, go ahead....as long as they can keep quiet and not disturb others who are there for kabolas haTorah. I know my child can't stay quiet, so I wouldn't dream of imposing my own deisre to be in shul over other people's right to daven in a suitable atmosphere.

TzenaRena

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 11:07 am

sarahd wrote:

SaraYehudis wrote:

sarahd wrote:

I don't think the people in shul will appreciate having my chattering and/or screaming baby there.... Wink

It's not about appreciation or what people might say

We know that the Torah was given to 6000,000 Jews, and Chazal tell us that if even one would have been missing we would not have received it. Every Jew is essential. That is why if even one letter is missing or malformed in a Sefer Torah, the entire Torah is pasul chv.

Likewise, the Lubavitcher Rebbe , for reasons that he explained, and esoteric ones either revealed or not, sees this Hakhel-like gathering of all Yidden in unity today for Kabbolas HaTorah essential to our well-being and zchus as a nation. Who is to judge whose Kabbolas HaTorah is more important... a small child? a woman, or a man? A scholar, or a simple Jew? A very observant, or non-observant Jew? We are talking about Neshomos.

Perhaps the woman standing next to your bench sending you an annoyed frown really wants to receive the Torah. Then she should know that she needs you and your baby to complete the picture for her Kabbolas HaTorah! And she could probably manage for those few minutes!

sarahd

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 12:13 pm

Interesting point. I guess if I were a Lubavitcher I would bring my child to shul no matter what. Since I'm not, and neither are the other mispallelim, I think I have to consider their feelings first. My Rebbe did not say anything about children having to be present in shul to accept the Torah.

Motek

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 3:59 pm

Both of you make valid points.

I think this might be a situation in which if it means a lot to you to accomplish this (I.e. having the baby and yourself hear the dibros), then "m'gibt zich an eitza" - you figure it out. The dibros take all of 2 minutes to recite!

In some cases, it's just plain impossible (ex. someone in the hospital who just gave birth, no shul on premises). In many cases it's possible but difficult.

RG - thanks for quoting me back my quote Smile

Didn't remember the RAV's commentary

TzenaRena

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 5:42 pm

Sarad, I think you are assuming that the Rebbe made this request of only Lubavitchers. That is simply not the case. He adressed it to all Jews. Here we stand, approaching the time when we all said in unison Naaseh V'nishma (5thof Sivan). Following which G-d told Moshe "I will come to you in the thick of the cloud..and also in you (Moshe Rabbeinu) they will believe forever.

Whether or not one is a Lubavitcher, the Zohar tells us "ispashtusah d'Moshe b'chol darah" Every generation has its Moshe Rabbeinu.. And when the Moshe of our generation gives a hora'ah (directive) for all Jews our response is to do whether or not we understand the meaning of it, in a manner of Naaseh before Nishma, with true belief in the Nosi and Tzaddik Hador.

Wishing you all a Kabbolas HaTorah B'simcha Ubpnimius. And now I'll get busy preparing for YomTov.

Motek

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 6:02 pm

SaraYehudis - you're right in that the things the Rebbe suggested, he suggested for all Jews, but you certainly can't be surprised if non-Lubavitchers don't make their life decisions based on the Rebbe's directives. And you have no reason to expect them to either.

Tefila

Wed, Jun 08 2005, 9:07 pm

Sara Yehudis Thumbs Up

You have guts Very Happy

sarahd

Thu, Jun 09 2005, 3:17 am

I happen to think it was a very nice suggestion of the Rebbe and I might even have been tempted to take my child to shul...and I might even take him to the local Chabad minyan if I work it out. However, I certainly have no right to force other mispallelim who are not Lubavitcher chassidim to follow the directives of the Rebbe....even though he was speaking to all Klal Yisroel. You realize that although the Rebbe was a holy Jew, most of Klal Yisroel did not accept him as the Moshe of our generation or the Nosi Hador or the Tzadik Hador.

gryp

Thu, Jun 09 2005, 10:00 am

micki

Thu, Jun 09 2005, 10:10 am

sarad you write "imposing my own deisre "
but it is NOT your own desire! Its Hashems desire! He wishes for every neshama here on this earth to be there for kabbolos hatorah- just like all the neshamas were there at Har sinai. Imagine if when we Recieved the Torah on Har sinai the babies and noisy toddlers, with their mothers were not allowed to be present.
Hashem gave the Torah to EVERY SINGLE JEW and he did not specify age!

and even more so who are the guarantors that Torah continues on thru the generations? THE CHILDREN!!!
so how can we possibly not have them there to accept the torah as well???

sarahd

Thu, Jun 09 2005, 11:10 am

micki wrote:

sarad you write "imposing my own deisre "
but it is NOT your own desire! Its Hashems desire! He wishes for every neshama here on this earth to be there for kabbolos hatorah-

How do you know this is what Hashem desires? I know, because the Rebbe said so. But as far as I have heard, no other godol has ever said that. It's not a halacha, it's not in the Zohar AFAIK, so yes, it would be imposing my own desire - based on the Rebbe's words - on other people who are not bound by the Rebbe's wishes.

1stimer

Thu, Jun 09 2005, 1:31 pm

freilich wrote:

Sara Yehudis Thumbs Up

You have guts Very Happy

I wouldn't call it guts Rolling Eyes

TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 16 2005, 1:48 pm

sarahd wrote:

Sarad, now that we all had a beautiful YomTov, and I have a few minutes, I would like to reply to some of the assumptions in this post. ....Why would anyone feel forced? We all have Bechiroh Chofshis, and no one is forcing anyone to do anything...Even following a request of the Rebbe, like bringing your child to shul for Kabbolas HaTorah, is your own mitzvah, which is not forcing anything on anyone.. unless they had some kind of opposing feeling or resistance to the whole thing, which is their own problem I.e. yetzer hora.

However it brings out an interesting point and that seems to be that some non-Lubavitchers perhaps with their own prejudices ( I don't mean you ch'v Wink

) feel that Lubavitchers are coming on too strong just by being around. You know what I mean.. We are a sort of (collective)consciense that doesn't let people get too complacent about their (assumed) righteousness. The Rebbe is always demanding, asking us, his Chassidim and Jews in general to intensify our learning, avodas Hashem, Ahavas Yisroel etc. He does not let us rest! Every occasion, be it a birthday, a Yom Segulah or an ordinary Wednesday.... calls for a hosafa in Torah, Avodah and Gemilus Chassodim. If you watch the videos of the Rebbe giving out dollars, every person who speaks to the Rebbe about a good undertaking they acomplished, whether it is a philantropist who built the Chabad center in their city, or a Rov, a mechaber of seforim, the Rebbe's response to them is not necessarily only Yasher Koach (sometimes that too), but the main response is to... add in their good endeavors, to increase their support, to write another sefer....

I don't think there is any Chossid who feels proud of or even good about his accomplishments...In fact probably most feel guilty about them! Not what we did but what we didn't yet do. we all know there is so much more expected of us.

However, that is not the mentality of many chareidim. They do feel good about their level of Yidishkeit and many consider themselves as finished products. They are good Jews, who have daily fixed times for Torah study, fulfill the mitzvos, many of them b'hiddur. It's quite uncomfortable for them to be reminded that the Lubavitcher Rebbe says that that's not enough. In their mind many of these people are thinking "There are those holier than thou Lubavitchers who think we're not good enough...."

That's a mistaken attitude in itself because the truth is we don't feel superior to other Jews. We just believe in the superiority of the Torah! Since we learn Chassidus, which is charactarized by the study of G-dliness and the deeper dimension of Torah, G-d and Torah are reality to Chassidim as opposed to the pseudo-reality of "world".Therefore they come across as confident about their Yiddishkeit because it's real to them. This confidence because it's based on Emunah does not melt away when facing adversaries, challenges etc. That is why the Lubavitcher Chassidim in Russia were the only group to survive 70 years of communist torture with their Yiddishkeit intact. Their Mesiras Nefesh was fueled by Chassidus. As the story of the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe, after his arrest. when confronted with a gun by the communists said "this little toy does not frighten me. Only those who have one world and many gods are afraid of it. I have two worlds and one G-d."

For some who don't know better, this strong belief, and confidence in it could be perceived as "forcefulness".
About the second assumption, that most....have not accepted the Rebbe as Nosi HaDor, one would have to know a. how many is most, b. what is a Nosi HaDor in order to make such a claim. However, having admitted that the Rebbe is a holy Jew, do you not think that that in itself is enough to seriously consider fulfilling a request of the Rebbe? After all the Rebbe is not asking for any of this for his own Kavod. The benefit is for Klall Yisrael and each Jew individually