tuition ethics | Imamother

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 1:09 pm

amother wrote:

In my children's old school I had to fill put an application for tuition assistance. It asked if both parents work, and if we have cleaning help how many hours per week.
It didn't ask about explanations, or extenuating circumstances.

I would write on the side "due to medical reasons. I have X condition (or can say a recent injury like a broken bone or a chronic condition). Please ask me for more information or I would be happy to give you a letter from my doctor if you need it". Be up front about it and be honest about why you can't work, need cleaning help etc.
I have a housekeeper once a week and not for very long but I have a chronic medical condition. You can't tell by looking- I deal with the pain while doing other things that only I can do. If I gave it up, my floors would never get mopped/vacuumed! There are other things I can't do that she helps out with but vacuuming is the biggest. Once a week is all it gets done here but I wouldn't be able to vacuum. I know people stare and want to know more (like she only has X kids, doesn't work 50 hour weeks ect why does she need help?).

Fox

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 1:31 pm

The solution to this problem is easy, but none of us is eager to implement it. Like the old joke, everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

The solution is not nitpicking every source of income and every expenditure. The solution is imbuing members of our communities -- at every income level -- with a desire to behave in a "seemly" fashion and a sense of shame when unseemly behavior occurs.

Let's use a less emotionally-charged example:

Years ago, in small towns across America, there were wealthy, middle-class, and poor people. The degree of difference might vary, but every community had people in each category. However, incredible, jaw-dropping disparities in income that are common today were not the norm.

Why? Because it wouldn't have been "seemly" for the bank president to earn 30 times the salary of the teller. Could he earn a great deal more? Of course! But at some undetermined point, he would have simply been too embarrassed to engage in a lifestyle so far outside the norm of his community.

That sense of seemliness has dropped away, first in the non-Jewish world, and now in the Jewish world. Rather, we hear, "Hey! It's my money! I can spend it how I want."

It's not impossible to re-introduce the concept of seemliness, but it will take a lot of education and commitment. We rarely discuss the responsibilities of affluence, and people who run to the their rav with shailos regarding kashrus and niddah rarely do the same when purchasing a new shaitel or car.

"Living large" is an aveira, and doing so should be a cause for embarrassment, not admiration.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 1:47 pm

We send our kids to a MO school, tuition for each kid is $20k+. Even with both of us working full time as professionals, we cannot afford to pay full tuition for all of our kids. I think that we do a great job at spending our money wisely, don't spend on vacations, "extras," or luxury items. I hold back on replacing some household essentials. (My towels are so worn out it's embarrassing). The school has been very good at adjusting our tuition bill to something we can afford. Though I hate every year having to open up our financial life to the tuition committee, sometimes having to disclose personal medical information, etc.

I resent that summer camps are considered "extras." We both work full time - what are we supposed to do with our kids? The only way we could avoid spending this money would be for me to quit work, which would mean we needed even more tuition breaks. I think that there is a lot of tension around the single vs dual income families in the MO community when it comes to tuition. Some schools will take into account the second spouses "earning potential" so if a highly qualified professional decides to be a stay at home parent, that would be a strike against them in front of the tuition committee. The whole thing is so complicated and messy.

We fly to visit my parents once a year - my parents pay for the flights, we could never afford it.

My in-laws like to take the whole big family on big trips (Hawaii, EY, etc) once every few years. These are whole-family, must-attend trips. I generally have no input as to the destination, very little input as to the timing, and cannot ask that my inlaws write us a check for tuition rather than pay for our part of the trip. If we didn't go on these nice vacations with my generous inlaws, it would cause a huge problem in the family and we would NOT be paying for another nice family trip. We would be at home. So I realize that many of my friends are jealous that we get to go on these trips, and it is a wonderful gift from our inlaws. But it has NO impact on our personal finances or ability to pay tuition. I cannot dictate how my inlaws choose to spend their money. (My inlaws do donate generously to the school, BTW.)

What truly broke my heart a few months ago was when a mom at our school, who is a BT, shared with me that she and DH had wanted more kids, but when they found out how much school cost, decided they could only afford to pay one full tuition. They were not integrated into the community at the time and did not realize that the school is so generous with financial assistance, and that most of the larger families are NOT paying anywhere near full tuition. So they chose to have one and send to Jewish school rather than have more and send to public. By the time they realized that they could have had more and sent to our school, it was too late. She couldn't have any more kids. That is really, really sad. It made me feel terribly guilty knowing that we had all the kids we want (BH) knowing that the school would adjust our tuition so that we could send all our kids. Somehow, she is not resentful of the families with many kids who get breaks.

So we do our best to be wise with our money, are completely honest and open (to the point of pain) with the tuition committee, and are truly grateful that our kids are all able to go for a price we manage to afford. We graciously accept invitations to go on lovely extended family trips, knowing how fortunate we are to have families who are able and willing to provide those. Whenever I feel resentful or depressed about the price we pay for tuition, or think about what other families get away with, I think about the price that my friend with one child paid, and feel very blessed.

nyer1

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 1:52 pm

Fox wrote:

"living large" is different depending who you talk to. personally, I work hard for my money and think if I walked around in a ratty sheital I would rather not cover my hair at all. I'm not saying I buy 5k sheitals every year but for me, it's a necessity. I live in a VERY modest house and dress simply, but happen to live in a very ritzy neighborhood. to others in my community maybe I'm from the poor, but to others outside the community I have it made.

boysrus

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 2:04 pm

amother wrote:

See, what would you say if you knew that we were on tuition assistance, that I don't work, and that I have cleaning help?
You'd be livid, right?
But nobody mentions that I can't work, and I can't manage the housework, due to postpartum depression and other chronic illness.
Am I supposed to adverise that to a tuition committee full of men? Or to a bunch of other parents who barely know me?

personally, my biggest problem with this, is that in my kids school , they keep it a secret who is on the tuition committee. I wish that I knew who it was who knows all my personal finacial information including personal things like the fact that I need membership to a pool on doctors orders for a medical issue. Why should these guys know things like that about me and I dont even get to know who they are??? It makes me paranoid when out shopping that maybe htat nice looking frum guy over there is actaully scrutinising the contents of my shopping cart and wondering why I am buying so much expensive protein like fish, meat adn chicken instead of letting my family fill up on cheaper carbs. (also doctors orders for same medical issues). Because I dont know who it is out there who knows my business, I feel like I cant befriend new people,; because who knows if they or their dh secretly knows all my personal business. I feel violated mainly because of the anonymity of this... and when I suggest to the school that they make this info public they claim that they cant because most people would rather NOT know who it is who knows all their business... Sad

Fox

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 2:19 pm

nyer1 wrote:

No, you work hard because Hashem has commanded us to work hard. Your parnosseh is from Hashem. There are plenty of people who work harder than you do and receive less parnosseh, and there are plenty of people who don't work as hard and receive more parnosseh.

However, you are correct that community norms vary.

That said, "community norms" are not an excuse for a free-for-all. We're all in favor of attacking "community norms" when discussing the impact of, say, a s-xual predator within a community. But suddenly we're powerless to criticize "community norms" when faced with "affluence predators"?

We also have to get away from arguments of false dichotomy. The opposite of a $5K shaitel is *not* a "ratty shaitel"! That kind of thinking simply reinforces the problem by subtly suggesting that any shaitel that doesn't cost X amount is, ipso facto, "ratty". And if a $5K shaitel is acceptable, maybe a $10K shaitel would be better?

Seemly behavior and establishing responsible community norms doesn't mean living the life of an ascetic. It means picking and choosing which luxuries are important to you while scrupulously avoiding the temptation to out-shine others in your community.

nyer1

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 2:44 pm

Fox wrote:

I think you are misunderstanding my point. my point is that people have different priorities in what they spend their money on. for me, I spend a decent amount of money on a sheital, rather than take out food, cleaning help, vacations and fancy clothes. for others, that's different.

but yes, I do agree with you with regards to working hard and what parnossah actually means in coming from hashem and not necessarily from our efforts or lack thereof

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 3:13 pm

amother wrote:

The tuition committee may be very happy with the amount that you give, your inlaws are generous donors, and the trips to Hawaii and EY are once every few years. There is nothing wrong with that. They are getting their money.

questioner

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 3:27 pm

amother wrote:

In the current tuition paradigm, you go to Israel and enjoy. If things were a little more equitable, you say, (And I'm assuming this is a hypothetical so please understand I don't mean YOU, but rather "one" might say) "thank you so much Mommy but my financial aid contract requires me to report this and I stand to lose a portion of the cost of the trip if I go because of the aid I get from other parents. So I can't accept your incredibly generous offer but if you could instead commit $X towards Moishe's tuition, we'd be so grateful." That would be helping "me" bc my tuition costs go down incrementally every time this happens.

Yeah I know. It's never happening. But I'd like to go to EY for Sukkos too and that's never happening either.

And mazal tov on your ability to pay, may you only see continued success. (May we all only see it!)

More likely, parents would shrug their shoulders and say oh well. And then proceed to (depending on their motivations): a) fly the whole family to the Grand Canyon for summer vacation, b) stay with the family locally in a hotel, or c) sponsor takeout and cleaning help for her daughter who has to make Pesach
Plus you'll be dealing with rich grandparents that are potential donors resenting being micromananged against spending time with their eineklach. It won't make them more likely to donate later on.

Leahh

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 3:29 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Then is it fair to ask such families to pay more in tuition? Is the school obligated to give tuition breaks at all? What obligates them? If your husband is a private rebbe who tutors or gives Bar Mitzvah lessons, is he obligated to give breaks and deals? How does he feel if he gives a deal and then the family is going to the Bahamas for Pesach, courtesy of Bubby who won't give a cent for chinuch? If the children had to raise money in order to get their children into yeshivas, wouldn't the first people they would ask be their parents?

For the examples given a parent can shop for an affordable tutor, rebbe....
Schools have taken such advantage and keep raising tuition without raising the quality of education or 'service' being given. And shopping around is not an option because all schools charge outrageously high tuition. If the schools would be more realistic with what they asked for, then maybe so many parents wouldn't need assistance.
(And this whole thread wuld be a moot point)

Barbara

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 3:47 pm

questioner wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I still don't understand your point. My parents want to fly me to Israel for sukkos. I say no? Because I'm getting a tuition break? How is that helping you?

FTR my husband and I work very hard and BH BH this year we did not have to ask for a break. I am taking the opportunity to be grateful and not poking my nose into everyone else's business.

It would help me because it won't keep upping the ante of what is accepted for my children. A big issue with all the wonderful tzedakos nowadays, is that there are those who can afford an typical upper middle class frum lifestyle, those who struggle with it, and those who can't afford it that look like they can because of external support.

It would also help because for every person whose parents really say, "I'll pay for the 5-star vacation, but if you dare take so much as a penny for other expenses, I'll take it all back," there are a hundred who figure that putting it into the category of "parents paying" means "income that's exempt from scrutiny."

Also, frankly, it would open you to a lot of scrutiny. Because did your parents pay for your hotel? Restaurant meals? Excursions? All of those expenses you wouldn't have at home. Because otherwise its not a free vacation.