tuition ethics | Imamother

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Thu, Dec 04 2014, 12:27 am

5mom wrote:

Maybe I wasn't clear. The obligation to buy clothing for yom tov doesn't have to translate into high end jewelry, and yet sometimes that becomes the norm. Halacha does not require conspicuous consumption. I'm pretty sure that neither the Vilna Gaon nor the Besht bought his wife the kind of jewelry that some young women expect as a matter of course. If you can't afford it, you don't buy it.
Ok, rant over. Back to the topic at hand.

Let's say you have credit card A, which gives you free mileage. So you use it to pay all your tuition for your four kids. Im with stupid

Let's say credit card B gives you free hotel stays. So you use credit card B for all your expensive Kosher grocery bills for your family of six. Im with stupid

So maybe these people ARE paying their tuition and getting freebies for their vacations?

5mom

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 1:10 am

I can't be sure, but I doubt anyone pays for a Pesach getaway with credit card points.

Look, I don't support micromanaging other peoples' finances. It's none of my business if someone treats herself to take-out once in a while.

The reality is that the combination of delayed or missing higher education+ large families+ private schooling does not add up, and there will always be a significant number of people who need help.

I do think that communities as a whole should work to create acceptable norms, because middle class life shouldn't involve luxury goods. There is nothing embarrassing about driving a 7 year old car if it runs safely. In fact, the family with the old car may very well be the one with the healthiest savings account.

But when I read that to make a decent wedding, people need to buy the kallah a diamond tennis bracelet, as if that's some kind of religious obligation, I think some priorities are messed up.

Educating our children ought to be our first priority, and we as a community need to allocate our resources better.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 2:34 am

New amother here:
Bit torn here...
I went to a school that asked for all financial records and if they saw a new fancy car they would say "if you can afford this, you can afford more tuition". And if the response was bubby bought it- the school said bubby should pay tuition too. I agree that people who get everything "gifted" should still be accountable for tuition. At this school pesach hotels and summer sleep away camp, driving new SUVs, and sukkos in EY were not uncommon-but people asked for breaks.

Now, I am not in the tuition arena yet but at the rate we are at with income I will need a break (hopefully we will both get better jobs by the time school is an issue but OT). But we don't look like we live in poverty because granny pays for lots of stuff. BUT she isn't frum and doesn't believe in yeshiva. Public school should be fine. Its not like we go on fancy vacations but you might see us in a nice restaurant because she can't cook for us but wants to feed us. Our kids get nice clothes etc. But we don't have choices in it and we aren't given the $$$$ anyways. If we ask that the money goes to yeshiva XYZ instead she wouldn't give it. And to refuse would cause a major rift in the family.
Hmm.
I guess that while standards should be made for accepting scholarships, they should be flexible. For times like mine and in case a family has "unplanned events" occur-like needing to redo a bathroom to be handicap accessible since zaidy is moving in, leaking pipes so the house needs major work that can't be avoided or pushed off etc.

33055

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 8:32 am

5mom wrote:

I paid for my airfare and hotel for my family on sukkot entirely with a credit card that was used for tuition. If I were applying for financial aid I would annotate the application to reflect that.

I totally agree with you about the lifestyle. In essence my double tuition is supporting the luxury lifestyle. If you are not paying tuition but can afford two new sheitals, a diamond eternity band for the mom, 2 new outfits, getting your house redone for your oldest boy's bar mitzvah to say nothing of a blow out kidush and a sit down dinner you are being unfair. The problem is that the community right now is ok supporting this.

On the occasion of a simcha, our community is so generous that it includes many extras that are just tangentially part of the simcha. The two new sheitals are because why?

I know many people who build in extras in their simchas beyond the obvious diamond tennis bracelet.

When you are living off government entitlements to fund your luxury lifestyle, it is a small step to having the community support it. I am appalled at the advantage people take off others willingness to help. I know one lady that had a short term contract job near Columbia and she get cheesed rides in because she claimed she was visiting a relative and spending the day there. I could go on and on. I am not jealous. I am disgusted.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:24 am

amother wrote:

A meal in a restaurant with a grandparent or nice clothes as gifts from the grandparents is not the same thing as a major home renovation, late model car, high priced jewelry, simchas that are the talk of the town, or lavish vacations. No one is saying that the person getting tuition help is obligated to look poor. Many people buy designer clothes second hand and pay very little for them or even better, people give away nice clothes when they clean out their closets. No one is saying that you must look like a shmatta, or that the husband can never buy his wife a gift that is within their budget. And keeping the marriage together is important too which means occasionally hiring a babysitter and going out to spend couple time. No one wants to deny anyone those vital things. It is the obvious, over-the-top luxuries such as high end furnishings for newlyweds that should not get in the way of tuition obligations.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:16 am

Quote:

How about the grandparents that will ONLY give for luxuries and ONLY on their terms? A friend's parents enjoy the attention they get from other people complimenting them on "the beautiful wedding you funded for your grandchild" or "wow, you took all your married kids and grandkids to the Bahamas for Pesach? You are such good parents!" In reality, they couldn't care less if their kids are wearing rags with the diamond necklace or at the luxury vacation. They are not even interested if these kids can afford food. It all boils down to the attention from the strangers. But declining these gifts is a no-no and can turn very ugly. The kids have no choice in the matter and of course cannot ask for a donation to the school instead.

I know this is an extreme example, but you can never judge.

suzyq

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:37 am

southernbubby wrote:

Southernbubby - I have to disagree with you on so much of this. Yes, I understand that it is frustrating to see people have luxuries when other's can't afford them because they are paying tuition. But your suggestion of restricting what grandparents gift to their children is getting to be a bit too far-reaching. We are talking about a school here, not the government. For a school to restrict what gifts a grandparent is allowed to give because of reduced tuition is just kind of ridiculous and Big Brother-ish. Maybe a set of grandparents love having their whole family at a Pesach hotel because that is the only time the whole family gets together during the year. They shouldn't be able to do that because one of their children can't afford full tuition? Where do you draw the line? Can the grandparents not buy their teenage grandchild a car? Or buy a nicer than usual birthday gift for their child because said child can't afford full tuition? I just think what you are suggesting goes way outside of the arena in which a school can possibly mandate expenditures. I'm not in that place yet, but I would be very upset to have some school that some relative of mine sends their child to try to tell me how I am allowed to spend my money.

I'm sorry it's upsetting for some people to work so hard to pay full tuition - I am going to be in that boat soon, without any extravagant gifts from any parents or grandparents or anyone, cuz we don't have family like that - but stay out of other people's gift giving. I understand getting upset if people are lying about their income, but to get upset because someone else if gifted something is just a bit petty.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:46 am

We are full payers b'h, and yes I resent those who abuse the system, but I think telling people that they have to dictate the gifts they receive or else refuse them is ludicrous. My dh's 97 year old grandmother takes all her children and grandchildren to a Pesach hotel every year. Maybe some of dh's siblings or cousins get tuition breaks, I don't know. Who are you to tell grandma that she can only shep nachas from the kids who don't go to school on a discount? Her money is NOT fungible. If one of the kids declines the trip, that money is not going to the school, because grandma isn't interested in donating to yeshivas. She's interested in seeing her family all together. And who are you to deny them a Pesach with their beloved grandmother, who, frankly, we're not sure has too many Pesachs left? Listen, if someone takes a tuition break and then goes out and buys a new Lexus when a gently-used Honda will do, that is wrong and abusing the system. But if a relative wants to buy them a Lexus, gezinter heit. Hashem blesses some people with high incomes. He blesses others with generous families. He blesses other families in non-financial ways. It's not a crime to have family that helps you out. Why can't we fargin that to those who have it?

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:48 am

suzyq wrote:

So then can the school say that they will not accept any child whose parents cannot pay a certain minimum? At present, most people would say that the current system is not fair to many families. Look at it this way:
say you and a few other families want to make a co-op home school. You have certain ground rules for entering the co-op in terms of money spent and time spent. Let us say that someone wants to come in but cannot pay what everyone else is paying or give the amount of time that everyone else is giving. And, let us say that on top of that, the grandparents, who won't give a dime to this co-op, are funding a lavish life for their otherwise poor children. Are you interested in including that family?

33055

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

I know people like this because I had a parent like this. The parents want to flaunt what they can do for their kids. I was living in an illegal basement apartment in Queens that had flooded and wasn't the same after. I had gorgeous luxury vacations. I had to spend my salary just to afford 2 nice outfits for the vacations while my undergarments were worn out. I used the leftovers from all my meals out to get through the week. I used to joke I average out to a normal person. There is no way my parent would pay for what is supposed to be my responsibility in my 20s. My tuition, my underwear and my food were on me.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:52 am

amother wrote:

Then is it fair to ask such families to pay more in tuition? Is the school obligated to give tuition breaks at all? What obligates them? If your husband is a private rebbe who tutors or gives Bar Mitzvah lessons, is he obligated to give breaks and deals? How does he feel if he gives a deal and then the family is going to the Bahamas for Pesach, courtesy of Bubby who won't give a cent for chinuch? If the children had to raise money in order to get their children into yeshivas, wouldn't the first people they would ask be their parents?

33055

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:57 am

southernbubby wrote:

You make a good point about the fund raising. I send to a school that forces the scholarship parents to do a give or get. Each family is required to either pay $500 or to get someone to pay it on their behalf.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:02 am

southernbubby wrote:

How does the family going on a Pesach vacation they're not paying for (aside from $15 worth of gas to drive there) make them suddenly have more money for tuition? They don't have that money either way. Of course schools are not obligated to give tuition breaks. And there are some out there that don't- they say find the money or go elsewhere. Most schools choose to give breaks because they are not in business to make money, they believe in educating Jewish neshamas. When a family asks for a break, the school should have rules about how they determine if and how much will be given. Those rules should look into the family's spending. But it's silly to look into any other spending that others might do on their behalf. For whatever reason, there will be grandparents who are generous with the vacations and kitchen updates, but will be stingy when it comes to yeshiva. Why should the family be penalized for that, assuming they are otherwise doing all they can to contribute as much as they can?

suzyq

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:04 am

southernbubby wrote:

Yes, the schools are welcome to say that, if they decide to, and I'm sure some do. My objection is to a school mandating not what parents can pay, but what grandparents can pay. To me, once a set of parents has gone beyond having their children in school, their dollars no longer belong to tuition committees and school administrators and they can do whatever they want with them. Even if that includes buying a house for their children who get scholarships.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:08 am

amother wrote:

In the past, some children who couldn't pay tuition, got little or no Jewish education. This was not good for the Jewish people as a whole. There were wealthy people who made Jewish education available and attractive in America and in other places. Now the poor could go for what they could afford. Then came the add-ons such as pre-school, seminary, extended years of yeshiva, and kollel. Now we don't want to go back to the days of public school with afternoon Hebrew school, but then, who should pay? Is one family who sacrifices and works hard to pay tuition, obligated to pay for another family who has more b'gashmius than they do? How many people here really want to do that? Or maybe there are more generous people than I realize. If that is the true case, than what is the problem?

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:11 am

suzyq wrote:

If the school says, our tuition is $X per child per school year. How you get the money is up to you. We don't give breaks, anymore than the grocer, car dealer, hotel owner, airline, or building contractor gives breaks. Either pay or don't come. Would the children ask their parents to help or would the grandparents prefer public school (I am not talking about non-frum grandparents)?

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 11:15 am

southernbubby wrote:

Of course no one is obligated to do anything. The schools need to have rules for if there should be breaks at all. If they think there should be, they get to decide how things are allocated. But going after grandparents is not the solution. Well, they are certainly welcome to send grandparents brochures and ask for donations, but to tell grandparents you can't treat your kids to anything unless it's toward their outstanding tuition bill is patently ridiculous.