tuition ethics | Imamother

Barbara

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 8:27 am

amother wrote:

Of course no one is obligated to do anything. The schools need to have rules for if there should be breaks at all, and if they are, how things are allocated. But going after grandparents is not the solution. Well, they are certainly welcome to send grandparents brochures and ask for donations, but to tell grandparents you can't treat your kids to anything unless it's toward their outstanding tuition bill is patently ridiculous.

There's a difference between saying "you can't take the family to a nice restaurant" and "if there's $20,000 to $30,000 to pay for a home addition, not to mention the extra utility bills and taxes you'll be paying, then perhaps you don't need a tuition break to the extent that you claim."

Look, no one says that you should be in abject poverty in order to qualify for assistance. And tuition boards should take all types of things into account. For example, if you live in a place where cars are needed, then every so often, you'll need to buy a car. And if disabled Granny is moving in with you, you need to make sure that there is a downstairs bedroom and bathroom.

But that's not the vast majority of cases, and I don't think there's a person here who doesn't know it.

causemommysaid

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:10 am

Squishy wrote:

Would it change your analysis if the inheritance was from a deceased parent? Ironically the school pressured the living parent to obligate the children to give up their inheritance. The living parent could not legally tap into the money.

unless the estate has more than enough funds to set the kids up for the future then no, I don't think the school should be chasing orphans who need the money.

to Southern Bubby- Amex is a huge corporation with no heart. a school is part of a community and should deal with things on a case by case basis.

Barbara

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:19 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

But are the vast majority really taking advantage? Not where I live, or at least not to my knowledge. The administration is pretty savvy. People here don't talk about tuition at all, except to lament how much it is. No one ever told me if they're getting a break, and no one ever asked me either. Is that so unusual?

The vast majority probably aren't taking advantage to that extent.

But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be upset about those who are. The people who put assets in the names of others (parents; husbands who are not the fathers of their kids) in order to be "paper poor" and qualify for aid, while living in million dollar homes and taking expensive vacations. Who spend their money on expensive homes, and additions to those expensive homes, and then claim poverty because their income barely covers the mortgage on those $2 million homes. Yadda yadda yadda.

And yes, there does come a point where it become tiresome to pay full tuition while constantly telling your kids "no" -- no, we can't go on a winter break vacation; no, you can't go to the Israel program or Europe programs or whatever program with your friends, you need to get a job this summer. When those friends' parents are open about the fact that they are receiving very substantial assistance from the school.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:31 am

Look, I am a bubby, keneinahora. When I was raising kids, we sacrificed to pay full tuition while few others paid full tuition where our kids went to school. We were not jealous, however, because those other kids were truly poor. NOBODY went on vacation for Pesach. Many people, my husband included, used to have to go to work on chol ha moed Pesach. They had to pack up food for the day and couldn't use the coffee machine at work. Also, we are part of Chabad and the minhag in Chabad is to cook your own Pesach food rather than to go to a hotel. The families in our school were very humble folk with humble homes and humble simchas and yucky cars. Most of the people in that school had poor grandparents as well and it was a big deal if the grandparents were sponsoring the candlesticks for the newlyweds or a baby carriage for a new grandchild. No one had designer clothes, expensive wigs, or any type of conspicuous consumption. The school administrator would not have wanted such people in the school, unless they paid their way.
Now as a bubby, we don't pay for vacations. Pesach, our children either come to us or we go to one of them. We do help support our son who is raising his family in Ramat Beit Shemesh Beis. We do donate to another son's Chabad house. We have paid for uniforms or shoes when there was a need. I also sew so the kids like to ask me to make them things. We do buy puzzles, toys and games when they go on sale but we don't buy status symbol toys such as American Girl dolls or all that electronic junk. We live simply and our kids do the same.
If the schools feel that some grandparents are helping their kids abuse the system, they don't have to accept those families. There are schools in Boro Park and Monsey that are very selective about the types of families that they let in. If they don't want those that abuse the system, they don't have to take them.
And no, my grandchildren's yeshivas don't tell me what to do. They treat me like any other possible donor.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:34 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

But are schools really falling for that? I think that for the most part tuition committees have been overly scrutinizing and this stuff is not flying any more. Our school asks many many detailed questions, and they request bank and cc statements. It's a pretty humiliating experience, unfortunately, but it deters the fakers.

If that is true, than there really isn't a problem. An up-thread poster, however, said that people usually manage to hide stuff. That is the question about ethics.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:43 am

agreer wrote:

I think this is a fabulous example of why people need to stop looking at other people's lives!

No, you do not have a right to inquire as to anyone's financial affairs.

See, what would you say if you knew that we were on tuition assistance, that I don't work, and that I have cleaning help?
You'd be livid, right?
But nobody mentions that I can't work, and I can't manage the housework, due to postpartum depression and other chronic illness.
Am I supposed to adverise that to a tuition committee full of men? Or to a bunch of other parents who barely know me?

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:46 am

amother wrote:

Cleaning help is not conspicuous consumption. A blow out simcha is. No one is trying to micromanage anyone else's finances to that degree. What if someone has to pay $150 an hour for a therapist for PPD? No one is going to suggest that they go with out help.

out-of-towner

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:46 am

southernbubby wrote:

Right! The standards have gone up. There was an amazing piece in the Mishpacha Family First last week that detailed just that. The jist of it was that there are so many different Gemachs for every type of luxury that basically has made luxuries into nessesities. The specific example was a tablecloth and centerpiece Gemach. In the past, people would have simply used pretty plastic plates and no centerpieces for something like a Bar Mitzva or Sheva Brachos. Now it's got to look like a wedding. Now the entire family of the Chossson and Kallah need their hair and makeup professionally done and need to be wearing ballgowns. Who set this standard? Sure it is nice, but it is also a huge expense (yes, in the scheme of a wedding it isn't a big expense, but little expenses like that add up).

Barbara

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:47 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

I'm not sure what's humiliating about the bank and cc statements. Shhhh. We've gotten assistance, on and off, because of my DH's medical issues. And we've provided all of that information.

As to "falling" for it, well, you see it discussed here all the time. "I need to buy that very expensive house before Snowflake starts school, so (a) we'll spend down the tens of thousands of dollars we've saved, and won't need to use it to pay tuition; and (b) we'll be spending so much on the mortgage that we'll get assistance."

And yes, we absolutely know people who put things in the names of others.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:48 am

southernbubby wrote:

In my children's old school I had to fill put an application for tuition assistance. It asked if both parents work, and if we have cleaning help how many hours per week.
It didn't ask about explanations, or extenuating circumstances.

Barbara

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:49 am

amother wrote:

Actually, yes, you should "advertise" that to the tuition committee. Otherwise, how do they know that you need help.

amother

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:52 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Like what?

Amother whose kids have non frum grandparents....

"I NEED a new $3,000 sheitel". If you work in some industry like law where cheaper sheitels will make you lose money then ok, it has to look natural. But I assume if you have that job (barring other extenuating circumstances) then you can probably pay tuition. But a SAHM or someone who works in computers? I am sure there are cheaper ones that will work just as well.
I NEED a vacation... I haven't been away for 6 months/since pesach!
Sorry- I have never paid for a vacation. Only time I have slept outside our apartment/families place was when it was a family simcha and non frum family paid because they wanted us to spend more time with the family. But I understand needing a weekend away once in a blue moon. I wish I could afford a weekend away! But do you really NEED a week in Florida?
I need steak for dinner once a week (besides shabbos).
I could go on.

Barbara

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:52 am

amother wrote:

What generally happens is that you write a letter explaining the circumstances. Dear Tuition Committee: Our income was reduced by 1/3 last year when I had to leave work to care for my aging mother, whom the doctors say can no longer be left alone during the day. Yadda, yadda.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

You may need a doctor's note if these things are necessities. We once asked a rav about changing schools for one of our children who had health issues. He told us to get a letter from the doctor stating that the school could not accommodate this child's health requirements so that the school could not come after us.

MaBelleVie

Thu, Dec 04 2014, 10:01 am

Barbara wrote:

I personally find it humiliating for other people to scrutinize my spending. The school I send to does not fall for it. I actually thought of one person I know who plays some kind of funny game where she manages to get medicaid despite having millions. They actually had the chutzpah to demand a break (they send to the same school as I do) by claiming their tax documents reflected their financial reality. The school did not budge. They know they're living in an expensive home, driving luxury vehicles, and have full time help despite mom neither working nor having any kids at home. So they whine about it but they are not getting their break.