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Empire chicken with OU not kosher (or not kosher enough)?
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mille




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jan 16 2015, 6:57 am
amother wrote:
Where do you live that you say "when I can find it". I will ask and tell you where they are sold near you.

FF-I thought WISE is out of business?


I don't care enough to reveal where I live. Certainly not in Brooklyn, Monsey, or Lakewood... I have options to buy kosher meat near me, so I don't really need anyone trying to find it for me. Thanks though?
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perquacky




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jan 16 2015, 10:05 am
This may be a silly question, but if you normally use Empire chickens when you cook, and now, because a family member has requested that you buy a different brand just for him, does that also mean you have to use different pots and pans to cook this special chicken? Do you have to kasher your oven? Eat on paper plates?

Although I find this whole post rather upsetting, I'm not being sarcastic. I really do want to know how he can eat in your house.

Posting as amother because I feel that I might make a few people angry . . .
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perquacky




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jan 16 2015, 10:05 am
Except I forgot to post anonymously! Ha!
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Amelia Bedelia




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jan 16 2015, 11:35 am
mommy1108 wrote:
Happens to be that a lot if chassidish people have started eating empire because it now is under another hechsher as well. The Nirbater now gives hashgacha to empire so it is officially chasidishe shechita.

Is that really true? Does that mean that all Empire chicken is now nirbater? Good to know!
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mille




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jan 16 2015, 11:39 am
perquacky wrote:
This may be a silly question, but if you normally use Empire chickens when you cook, and now, because a family member has requested that you buy a different brand just for him, does that also mean you have to use different pots and pans to cook this special chicken? Do you have to kasher your oven? Eat on paper plates?

Although I find this whole post rather upsetting, I'm not being sarcastic. I really do want to know how he can eat in your house.

Posting as amother because I feel that I might make a few people angry . . .


I have friends with lubavitcher family members. Their family members won't eat on their dairy plates or anything prepared with the dairy stuff, because the dairy stuff has been used with chalav stam. I think they will eat from the meat plates and meat stuff, as long as the oven has either been kashered or it's double-wrapped (because they use the oven for meat and dairy, which is common where I live). I know chalav yisrael is a different issue, but still interesting.

I don't think your post will make anyone angry though, I can't imagine why! You are just asking a question.
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sky




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jan 16 2015, 12:09 pm
I think it has to be marked with the different hechsher to rely on it.

My family members who don't eat Empire have no problem eating at my house. They don't consider it treif, they just don't eat it and I don't serve it to them or will point it out if it is on the table and they showed up unexpected. Before they got some of the new hechsheirim and we didn't eat Empire, my parents did. We ate it at their house no problem and didn't say anything.

Regarding chalav stam - we do eat on parent's dishes - (although my mother went out and bought us our own frying pan, which we never asked for) - but we wouldn't eat from other chalav stam dishes.
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happy to be me




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jan 16 2015, 12:48 pm
octopus wrote:
All those "better" hechsherim can say this or that about the ou but at some point they all rely on ou. A lot of it is political.

This. This. This.
Most hechsherim rely on the ou when adding their hechsher. The hashgacha business is full of politics.
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finallyamommy




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 17 2015, 9:36 am
perquacky wrote:
This may be a silly question, but if you normally use Empire chickens when you cook, and now, because a family member has requested that you buy a different brand just for him, does that also mean you have to use different pots and pans to cook this special chicken? Do you have to kasher your oven? Eat on paper plates?

Although I find this whole post rather upsetting, I'm not being sarcastic. I really do want to know how he can eat in your house.

Posting as amother because I feel that I might make a few people angry . . .


I don't think this is an inflammatory question - I think you were very respectful. I can tell you from our experience (though I'm not positive I've got all the details right) that we hold that because it's a sfeik sfeika (a doubt on top of a doubt; I.e. is that meat *really* treif, almost certainly not, and even if it is, have those plates been used in the past 24 hours, no probably not), and there's also the possibility that they DO agree that it's kosher and so there's no problem with the plates at all - they just want better, a higher standard, for meat.
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mirah2




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 17 2015, 11:13 am
esheschayil wrote:
Nope. DH has a friend who is Sephardi whose rabbonim hold that Eida beef is not okay. I know to only serve chicken when he comes for Shabbos. Also, I have heard that some people in EY (Chabadniks I think?) won't eat Eida shchita, and have a special chassidish shchita that they hold by for meat.


The Sephardi thing is probably because of chalak bet Yosef - basically, Sephardim hold by a different halachic standard when it comes to checking the lungs of a cow/sheep post-shechita for adhesions. This is nothing to do with hechsher snobbery but because he is genuinely holding by Sephardi halacha - in the same way that Sephardim hold that kitniyot on Pesach is OK to eat (although different communities do have minhagim about what kitniyot they will or won't eat).

I know very well that if I invite a Sephardi guest to my home I better make sure the red meat is chalak bet Yosef...

Can't comment on the chassidish shchita...
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finallyamommy




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 17 2015, 12:29 pm
mirah2 wrote:
The Sephardi thing is probably because of chalak bet Yosef - basically, Sephardim hold by a different halachic standard when it comes to checking the lungs of a cow/sheep post-shechita for adhesions. This is nothing to do with hechsher snobbery but because he is genuinely holding by Sephardi halacha - in the same way that Sephardim hold that kitniyot on Pesach is OK to eat (although different communities do have minhagim about what kitniyot they will or won't eat).

I know very well that if I invite a Sephardi guest to my home I better make sure the red meat is chalak bet Yosef...

Can't comment on the chassidish shchita...


I know that. My point was that Eida does not cater to the standards of everybody. (I don't know if they even can; I don't know enough about kashrus.) I wasn't trying to imply snobbery at all.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 17 2015, 3:34 pm
Barbara wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what that means.

Would he consider flour to be a processed food? Oatmeal? Sugar? Spices? Does he make his own wine and grape juice?


I know people like this. They make their own grape juice. They grind their own spices. They watch the milk get pulled. For Pesach, they go to the fields and pick the wheat to make make their matzohs. They shech their own meat and make their own cheese.
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 17 2015, 9:14 pm
With chickens there's also the kashering process - some hold that the chicken needs to be split ( see: http://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/.....mp;q= for this discussion) and it's more common in EY than in the US, but there are chassidishe hechsherim that do it. Empire does not.

FWIW, KAJ is Breuers (Washington heights) - a fine organization but not chassidish.

Of course the US OU is not as concerned about chodosh as an EY hechsher - it's not so clear that chodosh is assur in chutz la'aretz, but is a real problem (read: d'oraisa) in EY. Having said that, there are real yoshon experts at the OU and there were several years my husband was involved with making sure a large amount of flour produced at a major flour mill was yoshon from the get-go (it started out as 35+ railroad cars of yoshon wheat that was ground through the season).

Most organizations end up relying on each other, including the OU, but in the areas they differ they either try to work it out or they will refuse a product. It's not always political. And is not personal. I can not understand why people are "enraged" about this... (full disclosure: we eat Chalav stam products, empire chicken, chodosh, etc) we completely understand there are more stringent aspects to kashrus than how we eat and understand if someone needs to be accommodated...

YMMV
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sky




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:43 am
happy to be me wrote:
This. This. This.
Most hechsherim rely on the ou when adding their hechsher. The hashgacha business is full of politics.


I do agree there is a tremendous amount of politics. But hechsherim do sometimes make a difference even if they rely on the OU. We mostly eat the OU unless it contains specific ingredients. Some heimish hechsherim along with the OU indicate that the source of that ingredient is okay for us. So even if they are piggy backing on each other it sometimes supplies additional information.

With meat and chicken things sometimes are really different. When different hechsherim show up at Empire they even put in in their packaging and no one with know that it was made in the same plant. But they really do run the line much slower, if a knife is found with a problem they may throw out more chickens, etc. This does account for the additional cost of that chicken.
We once stopped eating a specific line of meat from a trustworthy hechsher because of the way they were salting and drawing the blood. I had to always ask the origin of the meat. when they changed then we started eating it again.
There are nuances between some of the different hechsherim.
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amother






Post  Sun, Jan 18 2015, 5:45 pm
mille wrote:
I don't care enough to reveal where I live. Certainly not in Brooklyn, Monsey, or Lakewood... I have options to buy kosher meat near me, so I don't really need anyone trying to find it for me. Thanks though?


I have connections at David Elliot and would ask where their chicken is sold closest to your location (don't think I made that clear in my previous post).

But I can understand you not wanting to say where you live.
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mille




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jan 18 2015, 8:21 pm
amother wrote:
I have connections at David Elliot and would ask where their chicken is sold closest to your location (don't think I made that clear in my previous post).

But I can understand you not wanting to say where you live.


Haha, I really do appreciate it, don't get me wrong! I find it sometimes near me, but not consistently. I am lucky enough to live a quick drive away from a lot of nice kosher butchers with good product, no worries! I just much prefer when I happen to find david elliot chicken instead of empire at the actual chain grocery store (vs the smaller kosher stores in said nearby-but-still-a-drive town, that carry a better selection).
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azoygeshmak




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Nov 10 2019, 12:21 pm
I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add a post because it seems there is a lot of confusing and contradictory information on here.

(Everything I say is just afaik. Please PLEASE consult your rov for your own decisionmaking):

1) Eidah is not the strictest hechsher in Eretz Yisroel, although it is close. I believe that the strictest/most trusted hechsher was technically Rav Landau's zt"l.
Not sure how this may have changed in the last year since he was niftar and the hechsher moved to the control of the new rabbonim in B'nei Brach (may they live).

2) OU in the U.S. is fine. Many, if not most, chareidim in the U.S. trust this hechsher completely for parve foods. Some will insist on a higher standard (than "just" OU) for foods such as dairy (re: cholov yisroel), meat (re: glatt, shechita, splits, and other factors), mezonos (re: pas yisroel, yoshon), and certain packaged foods (re: bishul yisroel). The specifics of these limitations depend very much on the community.

3) in Israel is *not* the same as OU in the US. Many people who rely substantially on OU in the US will not eat it in Eretz Yisroel.

4) Those who live in Israel must maintain many of the kashrus stringencies of being in E"Y even when they are in chutz laaretz. Notable among these is yoshon. Therefore, it is not clear to me that someone who lives in Israel most of the year could eat mezonos from OU when they visit the U.S. (OU in the U.S. is not makpid on yoshon. This is [likely] fine for us but not for them.)
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azoygeshmak




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Nov 10 2019, 12:32 pm
Also, I was taught that plates and keilim/dishes in your kitchen matter for inyonim that are considered bare halacha, but not for those that are chumras. So in my community, keilim had to be 100% cholov yisroel, but there was no problem if the dishes had been previously used with pas palter or even non-glatt meat, because both of those were considered chumras to us.

The problem is that different communities differ on which rules are halacha and which are chumra. I am sure there are communities that would be stricter.
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