Why don't you vaccinate? (no bashing)

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 5:13 am

I don't vaccinate because I was vaccinated twice. I got the polio and MMR vaccines as a toddler and I got polio from the vaccine and was diagnosed with autism 6 months later. I spent much of my childhood in therapy for both issues and still have a slight deformity in my back from the polio that hurts me every day and will probably hurt for the rest of my life. So obviously, the virus is not as 'dead' as they say and obviously they are not as safe as they say.

I want a better life for my children.

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 5:32 am

baschabad wrote:

Just found this:
Zero deaths from measles in last ten years, 108 deaths from measles vaccines.
http://vaccineimpact.com/2015/.....rted/

Can't let this stand.
Did you click through this? The death reports are from VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reports). That is an awesome database for careful scientists to comb through and make sure rare events aren't missed. But you DO have to be careful. Anyone can report ANY event for ANY reason, and deaths are often reported if they occur close in time to the vaccine, though they may not be related.
So look at the case they profile on that site. The patient also had: cardiac heterotaxy, dextrocardia, pulmonary atresia, complete AV septal defect (quite a list! means the whole heart was backwards and connected incorrectly). And the patient had a positive blood culture for a different bacteria.

So this kid could well have died after a vaccine, but because of his complicated heart disease. And I agree that if you have the kind of heart disease that will require three or more major open heart surgeries before kindergarten, and even then will leave you not normal, please, seek special advice. The vaccines may have a different risk profile for you.

And if you are relying on the websites like vaccineimpact, please read the website completely.
I am in the healthcare field, in pediatrics, and I have not met a single doctor who has not carefully and intensely reviewed all the literature on vaccination. THe anti vax movement has made sure of that! We healthcare workers actually LIKE science, it's part of why we're in healthcare. So we (vast majority) LIKE reading original studies and parsing data. And we HAVE reviewed the literature. Please don't think we are "blind" followers of the CDC!

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 5:48 am

After one of my sons had a checkup, I called my MIL and she asked me if he'd had the MMR vaccine. When I told her he had, she said, "too bad, he'll probably be autistic now". She is a health care worker who likes to tell people about how she's smarter than all the doctors she works with.

The interesting part is, my husband is on the autistic spectrum, with HFA. I doubt he was vaccinated on time, because my MIL was rather lackadaisical about that sort of thing. My MIL didn't really understand his issues, so she dealt with it by telling him that he was a "bad kid", causing lots of long-lasting emotional and mental health problems. These problems complicate our lives much more than my husband's HFA does.

I also have a son who's on the spectrum, also with HFA. He was fully vaccinated, but I don't believe this caused his autism. I have neurotypical kids who were also fully vaccinated. I do know that there's a very strong genetic component to autism spectrum disorders. I'm lucky enough to have found a great school for him, and we're working together to develop his strengths (he has so many B"H) and work around his weaknesses so that he can develop his full potential.

I do think that as genetic testing becomes cheaper and more widely used, the genetic basis of HFA will be better understood.

I'm posting amother not because I'm ashamed of my views but to preserve my husband's and son's privacy.

GreenEyes26

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 5:58 am

Barring (very rare) previous reactions or (again rare) legitimate medical issues, there is no reason good enough. Period.

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 6:25 am

I don't see that all anti-vaxers stick to a healthly diet and obesity and the flu are a bad combination.

moonbeam

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 8:45 am

youngishbear wrote:

Not as long as I believe your selfish self preservation is endangering the weak ones among us.

Prove to me otherwise and I could let go of the anger.

Excuse me, and the many, many women here like "amother A" who insist that OTHER people should vaccinate their own children in order to keep "amother A's" children "safe" are not exhibiting selfish self preservation? Yeah right. Rolling Eyes

moonbeam

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 8:50 am

Frumdoc wrote:

So far, the venom, as usual, has been from the anti vaccinators, one in particular.

Are you for real? Have you read the thread at all? There is a heck of a lot of venom from the pro vaxers. Just sayin'.

sequoia

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:00 am

eemachana wrote:

What does the SOCIAL CONTRACT mean to you?

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:13 am

sequoia wrote:

What does the SOCIAL CONTRACT mean to you?

I had brought up the concept of social contract on one of these threads. It means that we show the same consideration of others that we want shown to us.

An example of this is that if you see an elderly person in need of help, you help because you would want the same done for your elderly family member.

youngishbear

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:16 am

eemachana wrote:

I am doing my part. And I'm asking you to do the same. For all of our sakes.

And it's not for me, my immune system is good b"H. I want this for the weak ones amongst us, not my own selfish self preservation.

I am willing to risk side effects for the sake of the klal.

That makes me selfless, not selfish.

Think1st

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 10:22 am

Mumps may protect against ovarian cancer

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....028/#!po=77.2727

US Gov suing Merck for false MMR effectiveness claims

http://www.plainsite.org/docke.....d-co/

SIDS. CDC and FDA identify 100s of deaths linked to HIB vax, and downplay it

http://www.thesleuthjournal.co.....link/

Who is spreading measles

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccinated-spreading-measles-who-merck-cdc-documents-confirms

What the average MD "knows" about vaccines

http://www.askdrsears.com/topi.....-2009

Herd immunity was fabricated to shift the blame, like the old fashioned -blame the Jews for the black plague ( which vax claims credit for eradicating that ?)

Last edited by Think1st on Mon, Feb 02 2015, 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total

princessleah

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 10:23 am

Here is an interesting article that is in today's Times, there is also a video but I'm repaste the text here for those who can't see it. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02.....-news

Quote:

In the churning over the refusal of some parents to immunize their children against certain diseases, a venerable Latin phrase may prove useful: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. It means, “After this, therefore because of this.” In plainer language: Event B follows Event A, so B must be the direct result of A. It is a classic fallacy in logic.

It is also a trap into which many Americans have fallen. That is the consensus among health professionals trying to contain recent spurts of infectious diseases that they had believed were forever in the country’s rearview mirror. They worry that too many people are not getting their children vaccinated, out of a conviction that inoculations are risky.

Some parents feel certain that vaccines can lead to autism, if only because there have been instances when a child got a shot and then became autistic. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Making that connection between the two events, most health experts say, is as fallacious in the world of medicine as it is in the field of logic.

An outbreak of measles several weeks ago at Disneyland in Southern California focused minds and deepened concerns. It was as if the amusement park had become the tragic kingdom. Dozens of measles cases have spread across California. Arizona and other nearby states reported their own eruptions of this nasty illness, which officialdom had pronounced essentially eradicated in this country as recently as 2000.

But it is back. In 2014, there were 644 cases in 27 states, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Should the pace set in January continue, the numbers could go still higher in 2015. While no one is known to have died in the new outbreaks, the lethal possibilities cannot be shrugged off. If the past is a guide, one or two of every 1,000 infected people will not survive.

To explore how matters reached this pass, Retro Report, a series of video documentaries studying major news stories of the past and their consequences, offers this special episode. It turns on a seminal moment in anti-vaccination resistance. This was an announcement in 1998 by a British doctor who said he had found a relationship between the M.M.R. vaccine — measles, mumps, rubella — and the onset of autism.

Typically, the M.M.R. shot is given to infants at about 12 months and again at age 5 or 6. This doctor, Andrew Wakefield, wrote that his study of 12 children showed that the three vaccines taken together could alter immune systems, causing intestinal woes that then reach, and damage, the brain. In fairly short order, his findings were widely rejected as — not to put too fine a point on it — bunk. Dozens of epidemiological studies found no merit to his work, which was based on a tiny sample. The British Medical Journal went so far as to call his research “fraudulent.” The British journal Lancet, which originally published Dr. Wakefield’s paper, retracted it. The British medical authorities stripped him of his license.

Nonetheless, despite his being held in disgrace, the vaccine-autism link has continued to be accepted on faith by some. Among the more prominently outspoken is Jenny McCarthy, a former television host and Playboy Playmate, who has linked her son’s autism to his vaccination: He got the shot, and then he was not O.K. Post hoc, etc.

Steadily, as time passed, clusters of resistance to inoculation bubbled up. While the nationwide rate of vaccination against childhood diseases has stayed at 90 percent or higher, the percentage in some parts of the country has fallen well below that mark. Often enough, these are places whose residents tend to be well off and well educated, with parents seeking exemptions from vaccinations for religious or other personal reasons.

At the heart of the matter is a concept known as herd immunity. It means that the overall national rate of vaccination is not the only significant gauge. The rate in each community must also be kept high to ensure that pretty much everyone will be protected against sudden disease, including those who have not been immunized. A solid display of herd immunity reduces the likelihood in a given city or town that an infected person will even brush up against, let alone endanger, someone who could be vulnerable, like a 9-year-old whose parents rejected inoculations, or a baby too young for the M.M.R. shot. Health professionals say that a vaccination rate of about 95 percent is needed to effectively protect a community. Fall much below that level and trouble can begin.

Mass vaccinations have been described by the C.D.C. as among the “10 great public health achievements” of the 20th century, one that had prevented tens of thousands of deaths in the United States. Yet diseases once presumed to have been kept reasonably in check are bouncing back. Whooping cough is one example. Measles draws especially close attention because it is highly infectious. Someone who has it can sneeze in a room, and the virus will linger in the air for two hours. Any unvaccinated person who enters that room risks becoming infected and, of course, can then spread it further. Disneyland proved a case in point. The measles outbreak there showed that it is indeed a small world, after all.

What motivates vaccine-averse parents? One factor may be the very success of the vaccines. Several generations of Americans lack their parents’ and grandparents’ visceral fear of polio, for example. For those people, “you might as well be protecting against aliens — these are things they’ve never seen,” said Seth Mnookin, who teaches science writing at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and is the author of “The Panic Virus,” a 2011 book on vaccinations and their opponents.

Mr. Mnookin, interviewed by Retro Report, said skepticism about inoculations is “one of those issues that seem to grab people across the political spectrum.” It goes arm in arm with a pervasive mistrust of many national institutions: the government that says vaccinations are essential, news organizations that echo the point, pharmaceutical companies that make money on vaccines, scientists who have hardly been shown to be error-free.

Then, too, Mr. Mnookin said, scientists don’t always do themselves favors in their choice of language. They tend to shun absolutes, and lean more toward constructions on the order of: There is no vaccine-autism link “to the best of our knowledge” or “as far as we know.” Those sorts of qualifiers leave room for doubters to question how much the lab guys do, in fact, know.

Thus far, the Disneyland measles outbreak has failed to deter the more fervent anti-vaccine skeptics. “Hype.” That is how the flurry of concern in California and elsewhere was described by Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center, an organization that takes a dim view of vaccinations. The hype, Ms. Fisher said in a Jan. 28 post on her group’s website, “has more to do with covering up vaccine failures and propping up the dissolving myth of vaccine acquired herd immunity than it does about protecting the public health.” Clearly, she remained untroubled that most health professionals regard her views as belonging somewhere in Fantasyland.

chaiz

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 10:34 am

Think1st wrote:

Herd immunity was fabricated to shift the blame, like the old fashioned -blame the Jews for the black plague ( which vax claims credit for eradicating that ?)

Hashem_Yaazor and other mods, why are such statements allowed?? They are offensive. I am really wondering why a poster who posts really inflammatory and offensive statements is allowed to just continue without any moderating.

Barbara

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 10:39 am

Think1st wrote:

Mumps may protect against ovarian cancer

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....028/#!po=77.2727

US Gov suing Merck for false MMR effectiveness claims

http://www.plainsite.org/docke.....d-co/

Ummm. No. That's not a suit by the US government.

Your inability to read and comprehend a simple Complaint leads me to have serious questions about your ability to read and understand complex scientific data.

Think1st wrote:

SIDS. CDC and FDA identify 100s of deaths linked to HIB vax, and downplay it

http://www.thesleuthjournal.co.....link/

That's not a study. Its a screed, that begins with blatant lies, claiming that the CDC says that vaccines can never hurt anyone. Since we all know that the CDC doesn't say that, we understand that its a polemic, not research.

It's not worth continuing. Reading the things you post is like reading a BDS site to get information on Israel.

Edited because my original attributions were incorrect

The Happy Wife

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 10:55 am

Think1st wrote:

US Gov suing Merck for false MMR effectiveness claims

http://www.plainsite.org/docke.....d-co/

Umm, no, the US did not sue Merk.
http://www.law360.com/articles.....-says

anon for this

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 11:02 am

Think1st, in the closed thread you questioned whether vaccinated children were more likely to have allergies and ADD. In response, I linked to a study proving that vaccinated children were no more likely than unvaccinated children to suffer from various allergies or ADD, but were much less likely to suffer from vaccine-preventable diseases.

This is true even though the unvaccinated children were generally of higher socioeconomic classes than the vaccinated children.

Here's another link to the same study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....7555/

Nevertheless, you persisted in claiming the opposite in numerous threads, claiming that there were classrooms full of upper-class, unvaccinated children who were completely free of allergies and ADHD. It's obvious that you just ignored the link to the study, which, as I pointed out in the other thread, I found just by googling a few key words. If you had really been interested in learning more about whether vaccines cause allergies, you could have found the link before I bothered looking, in less time than it took you to post.

Before, I suspected that you were posting inflammatory links in the guise of "asking questions". Now I see that you're indiscriminately posting links to websites that aren't even close to reliable. Many of the links you post don't even say what you claim they say.

Think1st

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 11:25 am

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....8377/

Results. We found an association between vaccination and the development of allergic disease; however, this association was present only among children with the fewest physician visits and can be explained by this factor.

Conclusions. Our data suggest that currently recommended routine vaccinations are not a risk factor for asthma or eczema.

So we found an association, but not a risk factor Confused

marina

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 11:30 am

Think1st wrote:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448377/

Results. We found an association between vaccination and the development of allergic disease; however, this association was present only among children with the fewest physician visits and can be explained by this factor.

Conclusions. Our data suggest that currently recommended routine vaccinations are not a risk factor for asthma or eczema.

So we found an association, but not a risk factor Confused

Did you know that higher rates of ice cream consumption are associated with higher rates of crime?

Did you know that the example I just gave is a basic fallacy discussed on the first day of any statistics course?

Barbara

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 11:46 am

marina wrote:

Time for another ... spurious correlation!

Of course, it is entirely possible that people actually drowned themselves rather than be subjected to another Nic Cage film. Not likely, though.

anon for this

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 12:25 pm

Think1st wrote:

OK, that's a different study than the one I linked to, but it actually came up with the same result. I'm not sure if you're not understanding the study, or deliberately misquoting it. In the hopes that it's the former, here's a more complete quote:

Study wrote:

In this observational study analyzing computerized primary care records, we found an association between MMR and DPPT vaccination and the incidence of asthma and eczema, but these associations appeared to be limited to the minority of children who rarely seek care from a GP. This limited association is more likely to be the result of bias than a biological effect.

What that means is that the association between vaccination and diagnosed allergies was found only in the group that visited the doctor least. That is, children who very rarely saw the doctor were less likely to have been vaccinated. They were also less likely to have been diagnosed with allergies. That's because all the allergy diagnoses were made following doctor visits. Children who weren't vaccinated because they rarely saw their doctors were also less likely to have been diagnosed with allergies by these doctors. Because they didn't actually visit them.

However, among children who visited the doctor more frequently, there was no significant association between allergies and vaccinations.