What are the sources and reasons for being shomer negiah??

Motek

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 3:19 pm

chavamom wrote:

they told me they were afraid that people would get turned off or weren't ready to hear such a thing Rolling Eyes

What sort of background were the kids in your class that they would think this?!

and then people wonder why there is a need for a website like negiah.org

chavamom

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 3:24 pm

Motek wrote:

What sort of background were the kids in your class that they would think this?!

MO and NCSY type.

ETA- please keep in mind we are talking 20-25 years ago and "out of town"! Though talking with some of the kids around here, I'm not sure it's much better these days in terms of making it clear....

Ruchel

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 3:37 pm

Many Mo are not ready to stop the opposite gender cheek kiss to say hello, even at shul, except the most machmir. It doesn't mean they necessarily allow more and for them it is casual. But yeah. I'm not saying anything, I grew up like that and it was very clear that anything non casual or involving feelings was NOT ok, but for some it doesn't happen to be clear, or they don't care?

healthymama

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:23 pm

Quote:

Why do you need a special name for it? How about: are you into Shulchan Aruch or not?

I don't see the problem really. We have terms like "shomer shabbos", "covers her hair", "keeps Cholov Yisroel". Whether there exists a separate term for the concept has no correlation to how important that concept is in Jewish halacha.

Motek

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:36 pm

healthymama wrote:

so just as "shomer shabbos" does not mean keeping shabbos is a chumra, neither does "shomer negiah". It is just a term used to categorize people.

This categorization was invented in the past half a century or so by the modern orthodox who are lax in these areas. Yes, if you're MO you may be interested in using this term. Are you MO?

The term "shomor" as in Shemiras Shabbos, is Biblical in origin.

creativemommyto3

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:37 pm

They all categorize a frum jew b/c a frum jew has to be all of these things. We are required to keep the Torah and from the possuk that Shalhevet brought, it is obvious that it is assur to come to reveal ervah. You can't argue with what it says in the Torah.

Motek

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 4:53 pm

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, siman 152, seif 8:

"A man should stay very, very far away from women."

the paragraph continues:

"It is forbidden to make motions with his hands or feet or wink. It is forbidden to joke around with her, to be lightheaded in her presence, or to gaze at her beauty. It is forbidden to smell her perfume ... It is forbidden to gaze at a woman's colorful clothing when he knows her, even if she's not wearing it, lest he come to think about her. If you meet a woman in the market, it is forbidden to walk behind her ... To gaze at even her little finger and intend to take pleasure in this, this sin is very great ..."

seif 9

"You do not ask how a woman is, at all, and even through her husband it is forbidden to send her regards ... but is permitted to ask the husband or someone else how she is"

tweety99

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 5:11 pm

I grew up in a community where it is very normal to go up to someone elses husband/wife and give them a peck on the cheek wen saying gud shbs etc. I cant take it! it just seems wrong, it ruins the speciality of being husband and wife for each other. I think its very nice that only you are permitted for your husband and no one else.
being shomer negia just makes so much sense!

creativemommyto3

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 5:23 pm

These halachos weren't made to torture ppl. They are so beautiful. The fact that you don't touch your dh before marriage makes it all the more exciting. You should have seen me at my wedding. When I heard that my dh got to the hall, I wanted to run and see him. When all the men were bringing him to do the badeken my mother had to hold me down b/c I just wanted to run to him!! Then when we finally got to the yichud room, I gave him a big hug!!

shalhevet

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 5:31 pm

chavamom wrote:

I'm not sure that the problem is one of language. But I agree with the idea that somehow we are conveying the idea that this is a "chumra" that some "frummies" keep. I hate to tell you how old I was before I found out that this was not a whacked out chumra....

ok, I'll spill it. I was in seminary.

Yeh, me too. Crying

Well actually when I was about 17 or 18.

chavamom

Sun, Jun 17 2007, 9:23 pm

I went to look at the "negiah.org" website. Even there, they are really pushing "abstinence" but not necessarily "shomer negiah". If you click on the right article, it says in only one place that halachically you aren't allowed to touch at all, but that a person has to decide where they are holding. That was really NOT the overriding message of the site. It was more about the risks of having relations - furthering the idea that it is relations that is what is forbidden!

Quote:

For the purpose of our web site, we will simply define abstinence as refraining from s-xual activity, but we'll leave it up to each person to determine for his or herself what constitutes s-xual activity. Just be aware that halacha (Jewish law) does not permit any intimate or affectionate contact between men and women who are not married to one another (or close relatives). This includes hugging, kissing and even handshakes (under normal circumstances). So, one can be abstinent in the societal sense without conforming completely to halacha. (Of course, if one adheres to the halachic parameters, he or she will be abstinent by even the most conservative definitions.)

Seraph

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 2:15 am

I have a very charedi bnei brak (ponovizh yeshiva) great uncle... and whenever he sees me or my mother, he grabs my hand and shakes it really really hard, for a while...

I wonder- is that because we're family, so he's more lax? Or is it that nowadays hilchos negiya were taken to an extreme that never was done before...

Ruchel

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 8:39 am

Quote:

I have a very charedi bnei brak (ponovizh yeshiva) great uncle... and whenever he sees me or my mother, he grabs my hand and shakes it really really hard, for a while...

and people bashed me for holding my great uncle's hand on my wedding... lol beware, they will do it to you too

Quote:

I wonder- is that because we're family, so he's more lax? Or is it that nowadays hilchos negiya were taken to an extreme that never was done before...

yes to both

amother

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 8:49 am

It's something I have problems with as a BT..

There are alot of uncles and cousins, etc in my family... If I do not hug them, my family get's really angry or mad at me!!!

Though I really try to avoid it, either by pretending I have a cold...etc..

Ruchel

Mon, Jun 18 2007, 9:11 am

Don't feel bad. You could be Ffb Mo and have the same problem. There is no real solution. I used to feel extra about doing it, then when I discovered my frum non modern cousins also insisted on it, I stopped feeling (so) bad.