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PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:08 am

Fox wrote:

The dealbreaker for me, though, is the lack of emergency medical care. Btw, this is also a dealbreaker for me in regard to the South Haven, MI, bungalows. To my knowledge, getting to a Level I Trauma Center from any of these colonies requires being airlifted out. Which means valuable time is lost while waiting for the helicopter.

Obviously, all is in the hands of the Abishter, but it seems like each summer brings new tragedies that are predicated on lack of familiarity with the environment combined with remoteness from sophisticated medical intervention.

That would apply to a lot of camps, wouldn't it....
ETA: I see your subsequent post.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total

Sanguine

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:09 am

Maya wrote:

Quote:

Moreover, the adults often become complacent. After all, the bungalow colony is a private, presumably enclosed environment. But wild animals, natural phenomenon, and unfamiliar man-made dangers don't respect those boundaries. Your child may not be objectively safer riding his bike in the country than down 56th Street -- the dangers are just different.

That's exactly why I'm shaking my head at all those saying that bungalow colony life is much better for the kids than suburban living because they have more freedom to roam around. Your child should not be roaming around anywhere.

3 year olds don't roam around but 7 year olds do with their friends. It's a gated community in which you know all the other families. cars don't drive through. The older kids know all the younger ones too.

There are no wild animals roaming through - It's fenced in.

Don't knock it till you try it Wink

mfb

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:11 am

Maya wrote:

Quote:

I think its safe for a 6 year old to roam in an enclosed area of 3-4 acres in which they can ride their bikes, play with friends... All without going near a road where cars drive.
I don't believe you have that in suburban areas.

Maya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:12 am

Sanguine wrote:

What makes you think I haven't tried it?

There are plenty of colonies that are situated on two sides of a road with cars driving through it, and gates and fences are not reliable. It's a false sense of security.

Sanguine

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:19 am

Maya wrote:

Which colony did you go to? No one lets 3 year olds wander around. Seven year olds know that they have no reason to go out of the colony. Also there are always some mothers around outside (the ones with the 2-4 year olds). Everyone knows each other and would have no problem calling out to a child that they saw going the wrong way. Imagine a nice park. It's really not full of dangers if only your friends can come in. Three year olds can easily walk into swings but not 7 year olds

Maya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:24 am

Sanguine wrote:

That sounds really nice. If only it were true.

Re the bolded, do bungalow colonies have locks on their gates that only members can access, or can I park my car on the road and walk in through the fence and molest or kidnap any of your free roaming 7-year old children? The ones that I've been to, the public has total access. The gates are only there to keep the babies from getting on the road near the cars.

Last edited by Maya on Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:24 am

Sanguine wrote:

Have you experienced such a trauma situation that caused you to be so neurotic?

I believe that if you are going into an unfamiliar environment for a prolonged period of time where you intend to engage in a variety of highly physical activities with which you have limited experience, it's prudent to consider the medical facilities and care available.

How "personal" does experience have to be in order for me to draw a lesson from it?

A former student of mine, a"h, died a couple of summers ago after being struck by a car near her bungalow colony -- and airlifted a significant distance.

An acquaintace of mine, a"h, died from blood loss after experiencing a placental abruption while in her bungalow colony.

And that's without all the stories that occur every year in which I'm *not* personally acquainted with the victim or in which the outcome is less dramatic and tragic.

Obviously, it's far above any of our pay grades to determine whether staying home from the bungalows would have changed anything. Hashem has His own plans.

But most of these cases have an element of risk that I consider unacceptable. The inviduals involved were accustomed to urban environments and could not adequately appreciate the differences in their surroundings.

At the risk of another hugely long post (as if that ever stopped me!), I'll give an example completely unrelated to this topic:

Zman Magazine ran an article a year or so ago about how dangerous grain silos are. There were all kinds of diagrams, drawings, and anecdotes explaining that if you fall into the grain, you will suffocate.

I thought this was the most bizarre thing I'd ever read. I grew up in a highly rural area of corn country, and such an article was the equivalent of saying, "You know, it's possible to drown in water!" Every single kid I grew up with could have told you in horrifying detail the dangers of climbing around in grain silos.

My DH, with an urban background, was fascinated. Who knew?!

I, on the other hand, was shocked that this wasn't common knowledge. My kids were vaguely aware only because I'd lectured them about the dangers once while we were driving past silos. Seriously, how many urban Imamothers teach safety rules about grain silos. It just doesn't come up for most of us.

The same problem exists in letting everyone loose -- particularly kids -- in the country. It's not just that people aren't careful; through no real fault of their own, they don't even know what might be dangerous.

They don't realize that you have different standards for going to the hospital when the hospital is 30-45 minutes away. They don't realize that without streetlights and ambient light from commericial districts, cars literally can't see you. They don't know how to safely drive in low-light, mountainous terrain.

And that situation, in combination with scarce medical resources, is a problem.

Maya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:31 am

mfb wrote:

It's naive to think that the only concern in a bungalow colony should be car safety.

amother

Papaya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:34 am

Maya wrote:

It's naive to think that the only concern in a bungalow colony should be car safety.

What makes you think that no one could molest or kidnap children in Monsey? Or do you keep your kids under lock and key all day?

Maya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:36 am

amother wrote:

What makes you think that no one could molest or kidnap children in Monsey? Or do you keep your kids under lock and key all day?

You're missing the point of the conversation, amother.

Fox

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:41 am

I can't speak for Maya, but I'm not saying that anyone should stay home from her bungalow colony because of safety.

Even under perfect circumstances, safety involves assessing risk and making trade-offs.

I'm simply refuting the claim I hear on Imamother and IRL that bungalow colonies are by definition a safe environment for kids to explore with minimal supervision.

They are not. Each year brings fresh tragedies in which lack of familiarity, lack of supervision, and inadequate medical services create a perfect storm.

There are lots of good reasons to go to bungalow colonies, but kids need the same supervision they would need in the city, and they need a lot more education in order to properly understand their environment. I'm not convinced that happens routinely.

Maya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:44 am

Fox wrote:

...
I'm simply refuting the claim I hear on Imamother and IRL that bungalow colonies are by definition a safe environment for kids to explore with minimal supervision.

They are not. Each year brings fresh tragedies in which lack of familiarity, lack of supervision, and inadequate medical services create a perfect storm.

That's all I'm saying, too. I take issue with people feeling a false sense of security because the colony is gated, and letting down their guard because of it.

Sanguine

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:45 am

I think I've had enough of this conversation. I went to the bungalow for 7 years and camp for 13 years with no fatalities B"H. A few broken bones (not mine). An Appendix (not mine). I worked in camp in my 8th month of pregnancy - No baby then. I took my 10 month old the next summer to camp. He survived. A boy we knew from the bungalow got hit by a truck in Manhattan and killed. We live in Israel and feel safe.

We won't convince each other. We're always careful but not paralyzed with fear.

Maya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:47 am

Sanguine wrote:

If it didn't happen to your family, it doesn't happen. Good argument.

Perhaps bungalow colonies in Israel are different than the colonies in the Catskills here.

mummiedearest

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:55 am

last summer I went on a hike for a few hours with my dh. when we came back home (brooklyn), I went to take a shower. I found six deer ticks on me. at this time of year, deer ticks are tiny (the size of small pin heads), and I suspect most people wouldn't notice them. they really look like tiny birthmarks or dark freckles. I removed them and brought them to my doctor, who said they're too small to be ticks. I made him google ticks in nymph mode. I was right, he was wrong.

I agree with fox. us city folk don't understand normal safety issues in non-city areas. something basic like checking for ticks should be standard. how many of you spend time checking your kids for ticks every day? how many of you know how to remove them? how many of you would bother to save the ticks and send them in for testing? I still don't know much about ticks, quite honestly, but at least I know to look out for them. we take the kids camping, and we check them for ticks. it wouldn't necessarily occur to me to get light-reflector vests for a visit upstate, and I recently saw part of a show about a kid falling into a grain silo. I was fascinated and horrified at once. I had never thought about grain silos as a danger. they were discussing how long it takes to empty the grain silo, the difficulties involved, and that rescues pretty much always end with a dead body. (gosh, the things I watch while on vacation. they showed some program about spectacular plane crashes the same night. oy.)

I'm not sure I'd even be able to identify poison ivy unless I got a rash first. "leaves of three, let it be" doesn't actually tell you much.

that being said, I don't go for this form of vacation because I like to see my husband every night. this wouldn't be a vacation for me. a vacation, to me, is sending the kids to grandparents for a shabbos and me being able to sleep late. that's pretty much it.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:57 am

Maya wrote:

You're missing the point of the conversation, amother.

I'm with Maya. 6 is young. 3-4 acres? (?!?!)

Sanguine

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 10:59 am

Maya wrote:

If it didn't happen to your family, it doesn't happen. Good argument.

Perhaps bungalow colonies in Israel are different than the colonies in the Catskills here.

Didn't happen to anyone I know in 20 years out in Monticello and Honesdale. I don't consider a broken arm a major catastrophe.

There are no bungalows in Israel. I was in the Catskills! Different dangers in Israel but we don't give up on this life. You can spend your life worrying or you can "live".

Stars

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 11:00 am

Maya wrote:

If it didn't happen to your family, it doesn't happen. Good argument.

Perhaps bungalow colonies in Israel are different than the colonies in the Catskills here.

She said she went to the country in America.

Fox

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 11:00 am

Sanguine wrote:

We won't convince each other. We're always careful but not paralyzed with fear.

There's no "convincing" going on here. No one is suggesting anyone lock herself and her children inside all summer because the world can be dangerous.

Maya and I are simply pointing out that the "safe environment" argument is faulty.

This is not simply an off-the-wall opinion based on personal experience (or even my alleged neurosis).

Hatzalah runs extensive campaigns every year to educate people about safety issues in bungalow colonies. They've invested huge sums in trying to overcome the natural impediments to providing medical care quickly.

In fact, representatives of Hatzalah have repeatedly said that one of the biggest problems during the summer is that people feel safe in the country and therefore become lax about safety.

So if you happened to go to a bungalow colony where people had different attitudes and/or the environment was more carefully managed, yasher koach! But that doesn't diminish the problem for everyone else.

Maya

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 11:02 am

Sanguine wrote:

Not letting young children roam freely in what is really not a completely safe environment is not "spending your life worrying."

And then when something happens because of such neglect, we all cry for Moshiach because we live in such "difficult times."

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