Principal took away cell phone is this fair?

amother

Ruby

Thu, Jan 14 2016, 9:33 pm

firstly I agree that if the parents agreed not to give cell phone to kid and then did, is wrong.

why are some pp making it out that this kid commited such a big crime? big deal he had a phone and was texting. boohoo, thats the generation were living in. I think the principal crossed a line here.

hes not the first kid doing this and not the last.

just thinking out loud, why does the school care anyway if the kid has a phone and is texting? why are some schools so against it? they do it when the finish the day anyway. they do it when they have no school or when school is out for the summer. whats the big deal?

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 12:06 am

amother wrote:

The big deal is that kids are not equipped with the maturity necessary to handle stranger contact.

DD texted her cousin, who presents like a typical BY teenage girl, from DH's work phone. DD did not properly identify herself as she didn't realize her cousin didn't know who she was. When the conversation got weird, DD showed it to me. Her cousin, not realizing it was DD, gave out way too much personal information and tried to arrange further contact.

Meeting strangers happened in the 70s also before cell phones were common. We had party lines which were the phone numbers used by the phone companies to test new phone installations. Anyone could dial in and talk to anyone else. It is just easier with texting. I wasn't allowed to date, and I certainly didn't realize the dangers. We thought it was a slightly naughty thing to do.

Part of the reason to send to Jewish schools is to socialize the students to frum society norms which is part of the reason why the schools are so controlling. The schools get blamed when kids get exposed to ideas different than their home.

Right or wrong, students in school shouldn't have any expectations of privacy. I know of principals showing up at homes demanding to search Ipods for non Jewish music. I know of principals who showed up at home and installed a filter on a boy's Ipad.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 12:11 am

mummiedearest wrote:

just to point out, this is a futile action on the principal's part anyway. contacts are not all cell phone numbers. even phone numbers starting with standard cell phone area codes can be non-cell phones. unless the principal stands in middle of the classroom, calls each number one by one, and waits to hear ring tones, he can't prove that these kids have cell phones. even texts don't prove anything. I think the principal needs a few lessons on the various forms of modern technology.

The principal doesn't have to prove anything beyond a suspicion. If the text says it is from Yanky B, and the content looks like it could be from a boy then that is enough to go McCarthy on the sender.

Either the sender cooperates or they face dire consequences.

Merrymom

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 12:32 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

A school can confiscate a phone. That's not the same thing as hacking the phone and sifting through a kid's personal communications.
If the principal is going through a kid's contact list, who is to gaurantee he's not reading the messages too? Maybe he can look at the picture gallery while he's at it, to ensure the kid is dressed properly at all times? Maybe he can check the web history to see what web sites the kid has visited?

Really, I'm horrified that anyone would think this is OK in any form. I know schools have a policy that phones will be confiscated, but I've never heard a school have a formal policy of investigating those confiscated phones. I don't know whether or not it is legal but it certainly is immoral, and doubly so when a so-called educator does it.

So what if the principal sees all these things? Presumably we're talking about frum kids at a frum school. They should have nothing to be ashamed of and if they are then it shouldn't be on that phone. A phone is not the same as a diary that holds one's innermost feelings. Anyway there's always snapchat so kids can sneak around all they want. My daughters confide in me alot more than alot of kids do and I'm just telling you that there's alot going on there that you would be absolutely shocked by. These are kids from good frum families. Having cellphones very slippery slope and as a parent I feel the least we can do is to check up on the kids from time to time, principals included. If you're going to give a cellphone to your kids it's your responsibility to make sure that they're not abusing the privilege.

DrMom

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 12:37 am

Merrymom wrote:

Would you mind posting all your emails and text messages and personal photos? Presumably, you're a frum woman, so why would it bother you? Point being: Frum people have a right to privacy too.

Besides, I am willing to bet if this principal scrolled through this boy's text messages and somehow found something which implicated a member of his faculty in some wrongdoing (e.g., the boy was being propositioned or groomed by a rebbe), he would find an excuse to stay mum.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 1:13 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Please tell me this is hyperbole.

No, it is not. Literally the principal showed up unexpectedly and demanded the devices. One school was yeshivish and the other chassidish. To make matters worse, the filter is free; however, there is a monthly charge which guess who benefits from that money?

One friend had to agree to allow the principal to search her closet periodically in order to get her daughter admitted.

Merrymom

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 1:14 am

DrMom wrote:

Truthfully, I wouldn't mind at all with the exception of business emails. If Imamother taught me one thing, it's that you need to think before you send any message out because there's no telling where it will end up or who will misconstrue your words. So I have nothing to be embarassed of, and all my kids know my password and pick up my phone to play on it as they please.

As for what you're saying about molestation, that's a pretty horrible attitude to have. I would never send my child to a school where I didn't trust the principals and hold them in utmost respect.

Merrymom

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 1:15 am

amother wrote:

If the parents are ok with sending to this type of school, then it's the parents choice. I don't see the point in being horrified about it.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 1:53 am

Merrymom wrote:

I would not be ok with it. In fact, I would not be OK with my best friend going through my phone, or my husband. Other people send me personal info, some comments are meant to stay personal, etc.
It's true that a person shouldn't be sending very private stuff on the net - EVER. However, some slightly private things do happen there. That's life, today the smartphone is our main means of communication.

A boy might confide that he likes xyz girl. Is that his principal's business? Or he might say he hates his teacher, or he might tell his mom that he's so scared of the bully....

He deserves his privacy. The fact you don't need or see the need for privacy doesn't mean others don't. Also, the fact one is frum doesn't mean one doesn't have a personal life, one which today is sometimes expressed via texting.

Maybe the boy texts his therapist for help to get through the day? Maybe he texted his psychiatrist for more pills? Maybe he texted his brother in jail???
Maybe his mom is unstable and sends weird texts? Maybe his dad writes embarrassing things?
Is the principal some kind of terrorizing Big Brother, who can look into you at will?

Notsobusy

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 9:40 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

If the parents are ok with sending to this type of school, then it's the parents choice. don't see the point in being horrified about it.

The parents agreeing don't make it right. A principal has no right to go through anyone's closet ever, no matter what. The parent might be naïve, or desperate or stupid or weak or whatever. The principal is WRONG and should not be a principal. Anybody who can abuse their position of power like that, is definitely abusing their power in many more ways and is definitely damaging children.

Merrymom

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 10:44 am

glutenless wrote:

It's not that I agree with that, I don't. I just think that the parents hold the power and this is the school and the principal they chose. If they're not happy they should leave, that would make a much bigger statement.

Fox

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 11:48 am

Merrymom wrote:

In a perfect world, we could all vote with our feet.

But it's not a perfect world.

* You may live in a geographic area where there are a limited number of schools.

* You may live in a community where switching schools makes a "statement" that you don't really want to make.

* You may be rejected by other schools if you're branded a trouble-maker or "rebellious."

* You may be blackballed from the specific school or a network of schools in the future.

For a principal to go through a phone in order to implicate other students is a huge, huge breach of trust.

Granted, principals are in a tough position: they must enforce rules as well as supervising chinuch and education. But when the rule-enforcement role gets out of control, there seem to be few checks and balances in most schools to prevent things from spiralling downward.

Should the phone be confiscated based on whatever rules are in place? Sure. Should the student suffer whatever additional consequences have been put in place and communicated in advance? Absolutely!

But how many kids (and parents, I might add) have to be stripped of their dignity before we realize that it's not adding to the holiness in the world?

Breaches of trust cause damage that is difficult, occasionally impossible, to repair. When the breach of trust is egregious, such as molestation, we are all horrified. However, we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss less dramatic, less horrifying breaches of trust.

When the balance shifts from a school-with-rules to a virtual police state, complete with capricious search-and-seizure, informants, and an active underground resistance, administrators no longer have any chance of influencing, guiding, directing, or coaching kids toward better long-term choices.

Many of those kids will vote with their feet the second they get the chance.

amother

Ecru

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 12:13 pm

Principal going through a kid's closet is completely unacceptable, but if that kid was caught with a cellphone in school, that's a different story. I've read my son's group chats and I would never go to the principal with any info about it, but I almost wish one of these boys would get caught so he could see the language they use (cursing among other things). It's not that I want these boys to be punished, but I just wish someone I.e. the principal, could sit down with all the parents and show them that these kids need supervision and should not have an all access pass on their smartphones.

amother

Aqua

Fri, Jan 15 2016, 2:03 pm

amother wrote:

Right or wrong, students in school shouldn't have any expectations of privacy.

This is correct and this is the takeaway you should all get out of this thread.
Once a student walks into a school building they do not have confidentiality, privacy, etc. They (and you) should not assume they do.

In my school there are hidden cameras and principals have watched back the tapes for various reasons of safety and discipline. Student's lockers can be and have been searched. Backpacks can be and have been searched. Notebooks and folders can be and have been opened and looked through for discipline and safety reasons. Phones have been confiscated and looked through for safety reasons. The parent body of the school I work in is extremely litigious, in response the administration practically calls the lawyers every time they have to sneeze, so I know all of the surveillance, checking, confiscating, etc. is being done with their blessing.

Whether this is proper chinuch or not is beside the point. My personal opinion that looking through a child's phone to see who else is disobeying the rules, when there was no concern about safety, was inappropriate, is beside the point. They have the right to do all of these things. Your children should know this is the case.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Jan 16 2016, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

Wow. I don't know what schools and what principals you are referring to, but am I ever glad I have never had to deal with such an administration.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Jan 16 2016, 3:54 pm

amother wrote:

I am just wondering, which country is this. Are you in the states? It's legal there to sift through kids' notebooks? Legal to look through phones?

Why do you say that a child should have no expectation of privacy once he walks in the school gate? Would you say that I, too, should have no expectation of privacy once I enter my work building? What's the difference?

You mention 'safety' reasons. If someone's safety really is in question, that's a job for the police, not for the school. The police can seize notebooks, phones, etc. But we are not talking about catching criminals here.

DrMom

Sat, Jan 16 2016, 4:17 pm

amother wrote:

According to this site, studednts have diminished, but not zero, 4th Amendment rights in public schools:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.c.....e=all

In private schools, their rights are almost zero.

nywife

Sat, Jan 16 2016, 8:22 pm

Wow, this thread reminds me of my high school days.

One of my friends was caught with a phone and it was confiscated. The principal went through it and then yelled at her for wearing an untznius outfit in one of her pictures. She also yelled at a few other girls who were in her pictures (they had gone ice skating or something and they're skirts were apparently too short).
I once had my phone confiscated and took out the memory card so she had my phone but nothing in it.
I also remember girls mislabeling their contacts. Instead of listing a boy under his real name they'd put it under a girls name.

As someone mentioned before me, technology is here to stay. There has to be a better way to deal with it.

amother

Green

Sat, Jan 16 2016, 11:07 pm

amother wrote:

Wow as a high school teacher for the last 10 years, I would never want to teach in such a school.
As a parent, I would never send my children to such a school.
What a stinky attitude. The school would most likely have a much higher percentage of students following school rules and guidelines if they would treat the students with some respect .
Students are human beings that deserve some mentchlichkeit the same way adults do.