A dissenting view of the Rechnitz speech

gittelchana

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 1:38 am

amother wrote:

Last year a really wealthy person the husband was caught doing immoral things so immoral that he was in the ny post that the non jews even viewed this as immoral and this guys neighbors called a certain school not to let the daughter in to the top high school in Lakewood that everyone would agree is the top and what do you know this immoral guy will got his daughter in even with phone calls because he donated over one million dollars.

Why should a kid be rejected from a school for the sins of their parent?

The Torah says not to punish parents for the sins of their children nor children for the sins of their parents.

Unless these schools don't follow the Chumash Devarim part of Torah....

amother

Blue

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 1:42 am

I'm bringing a point that when parents have money even if twenty people come In to the school to complain which is what happened in this case the child still gets in because there is money involved:

But if there is no money then suddenly the school must listen or their old parents will leave.

I'm trying to say that parents being elitist is only ten percent of the problem.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:10 am

kima wrote:

No. What this letter points out is that it's the standards of the whole community, not the few elites, who are causing the problem. At least, in regards to people being rejected because they're not the right kind of boy or from the right kind of family. The problem isn't a few arrogant individuals saying "I don't want that kid in the school"; it's a community that sets a norm where a kid who doesn't want to focus on gemara all day doesn't have a place. Or a kid from a family that has less strict standards isn't considered frum enough.

I don't know if this comment has been responded to because I haven't yet continued reading the thread. I'm also responding to the original post.

I don't live in Lakewood. You know why? It's because I don't agree that the overall hashkafa of the community is right for my family. I don't live in Teaneck either. You know why? It's because of the same reason.

I would never go into a different community and tell them that since we are there and we see hashkafa differently, that they are wrong and I am right. What I would do instead is live in a community that does share my values and hashkafa.

There is a difference between being exclusive against those not within your social circles and to being exclusive against those who share a different hashkafa. There is also a difference between you, as an adult, not shmoozing with those who don't share your hashkafa and between not advocating that your kids become best friends with those who don't share your family's hashkafa.

I don't know if you live in Lakewood but you clearly don't like the hashkafa of the community there. But the fact that they think certain things are bad for their families doesn't make them elitist. If I don't want to raise my kids with a TV and I send my kids to a school where the school does not allow them to have TVs, that does not make me elitist. It does not make me think that they are bad. It makes me think that if my kid becomes best friends with another kid in the class, saying I don't allow movies in my house (although I do) it means that I don't need to give my kid's friend's parents rules about what I want them to be exposed to if my kid plays at their house.

I have relatives in a certain city in the US and if we ever had to move to that community, there are two choices of girls elementary schools where we would consider sending our kids. The first choice is a BY and very right wing where the kindergarten girls wear uniform, I believe because they didn't like that kindergarteners were coming in short sleeves, although I could be wrong. I have a very hard time sending my kids to a school that is so strict with that.
Then the next option is a school where I know personally families that eat dairy out and the moms wear bikinis at the beach. Not that those things are terrible but if my kid wanted to hang out with families like that I would have to censor their play dates because I don't want my kid going to the beach thinking its acceptable for dd to dress like that, nor do I want to have to have a conversation with her where I tell her that although this girl goes to the same school as her, we believe differently than her. Nor do I want her to be jealous that all her friends got to go to the super awesome water park and we don't let her go. Nor do I want her to have to go to the waterpark dressed in her tznius cover up where they tell her that she can't go down half the slides because it's a hazard. In other words, sending my daughter to a school where many of the students do things that we don't allow, may make her be resentful for our lifestyle.
(ETA: I would not send dd to a school where many of the students do those type of things (eating dairy out and going to the beach without coverups) but I wouldn't have anything against them hanging out on a Shabbos afternoon per se, if they met in a Shabbos group or at the park or something like that. When you send your kid to a school you are saying that the hashkafa of the school and their friends is right for your family. It's very confusing for a kid to understand why a classmate does differently but it's not as confusing for them to understand that kids in other schools can be nice and that kids in other schools probably will do differently than your family. )

For me, the tznius is make or break. For others it may be tv and Internet. About the Internet, SYR does have Internet. He said himself when we wrote his apology that he was writing on his phone so he definitely has Internet. Most people in Lakewood have Internet these days. About TVs, when you're raising your kids in a very insulated community, it is understandable that you don't want your kids knowing how the secular world raises their kids. Tv exposes you to the secular world in such a way that however Hollywood wants to depict family/school life on a tv show, that will end up on your tv in your living room for your kid to learn and absorb. It is very different having a tv and having the Internet where you stream/ download videos. When something is on tv, you never know what's going to be available at any time and can be accessed by any of your children to learn and discover. When it's on the Internet, you are very much in control of your sources and of the content that you allow to show up on your computer.

About kids learning Gemara, that is changing. They are learning that a kid can be a good kid and even a yarei shamayim but not be able to learn all day. It is taking time but things are changing.

gold21

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:28 am

Im not praising Mr Rechnitz as a trailblazer, nor am I critiquing his speech and letter. I think he spoke his mind, and good for him. I dont understand why his speech/letter are being analyzed and ripped apart. A man is allowed an opinion. Or maybe not in Lakewood, apparently? No, but seriously. Of course hes allowed an opinion. Not sure why people are overreacting to what he said/wrote.

amother

Blue

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:38 am

Rechnitz put his speech up on a TelePrompter which is what the president uses when he speaks that the words came up on a glass so he can see his speech as he speaks. He put it up there ten minutes before his speech. No one knew before hand what he was going to speak about.

His content was amazing but I think a lot of his facts are off. The problem is the heads of schools and it's not fair to blame it on a few idiots that complain to schools. Every year 100 kids are out of school out of those 100 maybe three kids someone spoke bad about so why are we focusing on that when that is not the root of the problem?

amother

Red

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:38 am

I live in Lakewood and I have to say IME it's really not about the learning/working. There are plenty of people whose husbands are learning in BMG and had no pull/money/connections and did not get into a school. And there are plenty of people whose husbands are working and DID get into school. It's really not about that (except maybe in one or two schools, but not majority of Lakewood).

As far as Internet, every single school in Lakewood has the rule that they will not accept families who have UNFILTERED Internet in their homes. This is due to a psak from R' Mattisyahu Salomon shlita. In both boys' schools and girls' schools we had to sign a document stating that if we have Internet in our home (and we do for business purposes) it must be filtered and our children cannot have access.

It really is about the fact that there are BH so many children in Lakewood and a few
"top" schools that everyone tries to get into. We tried for some of the more popular schools because we felt it was a good fit for our family. We had a wealthy gvir call on our behalf (not Rechnitz). We had a big Rosh Yeshiva from outside Lakewood call on our behalf. We had the cousin of the school owner call on our behalf. Nothing doing. There was simply no room for my daughter. So we applied to a newer school. And BH got in almost immediately. And she is BH very happy there.

I think of it like the Ivy League universities (I'm not comparing the level of education). There are a few schools which thousands of people want to attend. They get loads of applications but are only going to accept 5%. That puts them in a position of power - who will they accept? People who have the greatest chance of graduating. Of giving something to the school. Of boosting the school image. Of course there are now laws in place to prevent this extremism, but the basic idea is still there. And it's the same for Lakewood schools. Because there are so many applicants for the "better" schools, they are in a position of being able to choose whom to accept - those who will boost the school image or be a benefit to the school. And the schools that accept those who were not accepted by the "better" schools are looked at as second class. So in this sense it is the elitism of the greater Lakewood community that is the problem, because they only want to send their children to the "better" schools and refuse to send to the "second-class" schools who have the same level of education and same extra-curricular programs and same level of warmth and caring.

No one is blameless, but at the same time no one is entirely at fault either. I can't think of a way to fix this, but not sending out acceptance letters until every single child is placed in a school is a good start.

gold21

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:43 am

amother wrote:

Nothing personal to you specifically, but why is everyone on this thread calling him "rechnitz", without the basic dignity of the title "mr rechnitz" and then hounding him over the details of what he said? Either hes a "rechnitz", a nobody, so who cares what he said, or hes "mr rechnitz" and his speech was significant enough to pick apart.

Heyaaa

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 3:13 am

kima wrote:

You need to see your comments from the perspective of the other side. To you, "Working doesn't take away from frumkeit or hashkafa," but to plenty of people it does, which is exactly why they choose not to do it! (Do I need to dig up the old threads where kollel wives admit how disappointed they were when their husbands stopped learning and went to work?)

You say that "someone who is working can even have better standards than the kollel guy." And you know what else, someone who is MO can also have better standards than the kollel guy. But I don't think most people in Lakewood would be ok with sending their kids to a school with MO hashkafos. The fact is everyone has their standards which they think is right, and want those standards upheld, regardless of any exceptions to the rule. To you working is ok, to others it indicates a lesser madreiga. To some people having internet access is ok, but to others it indicates a flawed approach.

The fact is if you think your worldview is one that is superior to other people, and that the way you live your life is superior to how others live their lives, then you are being elitist towards those other groups. That is the very definition of what being elitist means. If you subscribe to a hashkafa where those who work are on a lower madreiga than those who learn, then you are being elitist towards those people. And if you subscribe to a hashkafa that says that if you have internet in your home you are on a lower level than those who don't have it, then you are being elitist towards those people.

What if you have Internet in your home and you think you are better than people who don't have Internet in their home. Then you are being elitist towards this people.

I think you're confusing having standards and sticking by them to meaning that such a person is elitist.

If I have values and I believe in them, hopefully it's because I've done some real thought and research into my beliefs and have molded my life to be a life that I truly respect and believe in.

Hopefully you think your worldview is superior. If you don't think your worldview is superior, then maybe you need to do some real introspection to determine why it is that you are not trying to live the best life you can.

No one respects everyone and if I don't respect the same people that you respect, that does not make me elitist. It means I have values and standards that differ from yours.

What would make me elitist would be if I not only thought that my worldview was better than everyone else's but also that anyone who does not share my worldview is inferior by virtue of the fact that they disagree with me. It would also make me elitist if I thought that I myself was superior to everyone else and I didn't have actual reasons to back it up. It would also make me elitist if I thought I was superior to everyone in every way, even if I did have reasons to back it up, because no one is better than everyone else in every way. It would also make me elitist if I thought I was better than anyone in any way, even if I had a reason to back it up, if I acted like a jerk because of it.

amother

Tan

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 5:32 am

Honestly some of people's comments here I find so insensitive, and so not true unless u have been through this you honestly have no right to speak and to put others down of what you think the reason is why a child is not being accepted, these comments you make are the people that hes calling ones that think they are superior, I am one of those parents of a child that is not being accepted anywhere, and for non of these "reasons"that some of you are writing about, I have no tv I have filtered internet, torah house, hard working parents with jobs in torah atmosphere, a good kid,learns well, only applying to yeshivous of our type and still no acceptance and why? For no reason just because, or the reason mr rechnitz gave "no room" so please if you are not one of those parents going through this pain please keep all your self righteous comments to yourslef and thank gd you are not going through this

fleetwood

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 8:05 am

I have a question. If a school only wants kids whose fathers don't work, how do they pay tuition? I can't believe someone is penalized for working. Please tell me this isn't a real thing.

Simple1

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 8:35 am

I don't think the elitism has all that much to do with frumkeit. There's nothing wrong with wanting to send to a school that matches your hashkafa.

It's just that all schools want to be top schools and too many parents want their kids going to top schools.

Families can be rejected for reasons not related to how frum they are. It can be academics, social status, money, etc.

Look how many parents are obsessed with the academics of the school. But then they're complaining about too much homework. But at least their kids are in top schools.

Heyaaa

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 11:19 am

fleetwood wrote:

I have a question. If a school only wants kids whose fathers don't work, how do they pay tuition? I can't believe someone is penalized for working. Please tell me this isn't a real thing.

I know plenty of people in Lakewood where the fathers work and their daughters got into the high schools of their choice.

Mevater

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 11:27 am

Heyaaa wrote:

I know plenty of people in Lakewood where the fathers work and their daughters got into the high schools of their choice.

I agree. Times have changed. Except for the most Yeshivish schools, I think its just the opposite of children whose parents are working having difficulty getting into schools now. These days, the feeling I get is that its the children of high earning parents who are getting into the schools easier.

chayayehudis

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 12:44 pm

My daughter didn't get into high school right away and when she did get in they told us it was bc of academics. And this school was not even a top one . I

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:16 pm

I'm going to take a REALLY dissenting view and agree with the "elitists"

I live in Lakewood and send my oldest son to one of the less Yeshivesh more accepting schools. And I am having major problems with the influence the rest of his class is having in him in relation to (1)seeing gasmius/having a good time as a major life striving and value (2)exposure to the non Jewish entertainment world (3)the use of all sorts of unacceptable words.(4) etc.

None of my friends whose children are in the more "elitist" schools are having such issues.
I regret terribly not having sent him to one.

Let me add.My younger children all go to "elitist" schools.The middos of their classmates is far better and there is far less bullying then in my oldest sons school.

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:20 pm

amother wrote:

I have to agree with this. Even though it is not completely foolproof

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

I think it goes both ways and depends on the school and family. My kids had a horrible experience in the 'best' school and we switched to a more MO one and their lives turned around for the better. So it depends on the situation and one school is not always better then the other. We have to teach our kids according to the best for them, so one school is not better. The 'better' school is the one that's best for that child. Just my thoughts....

balibusta

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:42 pm

The scare of getting into schools makes ppl conform more to lkwd I think

amother

Blue

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:48 pm

I live in a yeshivish development and many of my neighbors the father either stay in learning until they have to get their oldest into school or they hide that they are working until they get into school. It's very sad.

Heyaaa

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

I don't get this. I don't understand why a person would willingly live in a community where they feel forced to be fake and deceitful in order to fit in. Why not live in a community that happily accepts you and even respects you the way that you are? Why not live in a community where people are on the same page as you instead of a community that fundamentally disagrees with you.