FBI raid in Monsey - Amother enabled

amother

Navy

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 10:22 am

watergirl wrote:

I dont want to think this way, but I just called up my husband and asked him - is this how "they" make their money, and is this the way that "they" buy those strollers, fancy clothes, kallah jewelry that we keep reading about on here? I dont know who "they" is, btw..

No... I dont think anyone really profits from these kinds of frauds as individuals. What it *does* do, is it enables tuition to be on the low side. If these mosdos find a way to finance their schools without charging parents an arm and a leg, it's likely through defrauding these kinds of programs.

I'm not condoning it. What they did was fraud, and reprehensible. I'm just responding to your post, that individuals don't become rich from this. It just makes it possible to keep tuition low. Which then in turn makes it possible for people to go the country and buy strollers, eh? Very Happy

amother

Aqua

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 10:29 am

amother wrote:

I am so over the "victim" mentality.

Yes my community's traditional outlook made higher education a bit more difficult to achieve. But you know what? My family is poor, so poor me probably would have had to work my way through college in some parallel universe scenario. We get handed a set of circumstances but staying there and wallowing is a choice.

Stop whining and take the reins of your life into your own hands.

Who said I didn't take the reigns of my life into my own hands? But what does it matter what I did or didn't do after I learned the truth about my Satmar "education", I still have the right to express my pain and anger about it and won't be shamed or guilt tripped into being silenced. How come my feelings, thought, and opinions about my experiences as a Satmar graduate are not valid or acceptable? But more importantly, what makes your feelings, thoughts and opinions more valid or acceptable than mine? What is it that I am saying that makes you so uncomfortable and angry that you feel the need to silence me?

amother

Mustard

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

I'm not uncomfortable or angry. I have compassion (pity) on you. You seem so stuck in your anger.

Satmar prepared me well to go on to higher education myself - with the exception of the piece of paper that I needed to earn with some additional self-guidedself-guided preparation. (Reading a $13 book and spending two days in a dingy classroom taking the tests.)

Again, you are fighting the reality of a cultural value system that you had the misfortune of being born into and then rejecting. You were raised according to your community's ideals. As an adult you feel cheated. No one took anything away from you anymore than, say, a BT can say her parents abused her by keeping her from her rightful religious heritage.

I have to ask... what else do you resent about your community that you are so bitter about it? Is it really that piece of paper?

I've been down the road of hating the system and the patriarchy and bshows and all that. I've come to see that none of that are the true source of my pain and I've grown past it to acceptance.

Wishing you a safe journey with peace at your destination.

watergirl

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 10:42 am

amother wrote:

According to what I read, the frum owned electronic stores that were contracted by e-bates to provide the schools with equipment was taking illegally unlocking the iphones that the schools "got" and sold them for profit overseas.

This is all according to what was reported after investigations in 2013 - and it is always possible that the reporter who covered the investigation story was biased - we know that we see it every day in the news with stories about Israel - but if this is true, then the devices were in fact sold at profit. Where did the money go, and whos pockets did it line?

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:53 am

amother wrote:

I don't think that you can compare a BT to a Satmar girl.

A BT would have gotten a good secular education, perhaps gone to college, maybe have a career, learned how to drive, had the ability to date, and do other things that Satmar girls are not allowed to do. These skills don't go away when you become frum so the BT can use it to her advantage.

A BT can learn the halachos of Kosher, Shabbat, etc. and follow the halacha as they are taught by their Rabbi, teacher, etc. They can also learn Chumash, Rashi, etc if they want to as well but the Satmar girls, who grew up frum, never learned Chumash or Rashi, they just followed the halachos as they were taught. Sure, they can learn Chumash, Rashi, etc as an adult but at that time, they also have to learn other things as well that they weren't allowed to learn in the community which puts them at a greater disadvantage over BT's as well. So what is the point of growing up frum if you are so restricted that you can't even learn Chumash, Rashi, etc? And to not be able to graduate high school, go to college, or drive, etc. I have no words. No one should have to go through that.

But you said that you were able to overcome your own anger. Can you perhaps share what helped you do that? Maybe that will help other people overcome their anger as well because dismissing and minimizing their pain doesn't help them at all. Thank you.

Amarante

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:15 pm

watergirl wrote:

Obviously the profits were split with whatever others were involved with the fraud. That's why Yeshivahs were raided because the only way to verify that transactions were honest was to check to see if the Yeshivahs actually had the equipment.

No different with some Medical fraud where the "patients" get a certain amount of money to make the claim and steerers also make money. The highest incident of medical fraud per capita is Brighton Beach LOL

Not that it is limited to frum communities. Most recently the polygamist cult in Utah which was headed by the child abuser Warren Jeffs was raided for food stamp fraud. That fraud consisted of the cult members handing over the food stamps to the cult which funneled them through a "store" owned by the cult members. The members received 7.2 million in food stamps just last year which obviously is a huge amount. The sad part is that evidently the women and children received very little food as they had to get their food rations from a poorly stocked central distribution center. The money for food stamps was not even used for food.

https://www.washingtonpost.com.....sect/

All fraud is theft of one kind of another. Perhaps some on this thread more personally identify with children who don't receive the benefit of education since education when schools don't fulfill even the minimal requirements for a high school diploma. Children and parents perhaps are innocent of the long term implications of not receiving enough education to fully function in the world. It just seems like a tremendous handicap to not be able to function well in English. I understand that there are businesses that can be done within the insular community but are there really enough good job opportunities (whether blue collar, business, professional) that are available for someone who lacks basic skills - however native "smart" they might be.

As for the raids, the truth is that the Federal government very rarely moves forward without very substantial evidence. Yes people are presumed innocent but statistically more than 90% of federal charges are pled out because the evidence collected is so overwhelming. It's not like local police. And these kinds of fraud cases generally will leave a LOT of trails behind because of all the paperwork that has to be generated.

Fox

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:20 pm

First of all, kudos to me for not responding to the side discussion involving Regents. It's taking a lot of deep-breathing exercises, but so far, so good!

On the topic of "quality" education, my observation over the years has been that people who are intellectually inquisitive will become decently educated no matter how lousy a school they attend. People who are not intellectually inquisitive can attend a competitive, top-notch school and walk away with no more erudition or perspective than they had when they began.

As for the FBI raids, I'm finding it a bit of a yawn. As a Chicagoan, I suppose I have a preternaturally high tolerance for the misuse of government funds. From the articles I've read, it sounds to me like the misuse of the money was not what triggered the aggressive law enforcement approach; it was not paying the $900K that was determined to have been used incorrectly.

Under normal circumstances, this kind of thing is worked out by lawyers and the Justice Department in proverbial smoked-filled rooms. In fact, much of the time, it doesn't even carry the stigma of dishonesty -- it's more like the government says, "Look, you applied for and received $X that you really weren't entitled to. Or maybe you were 100 percent honest and we made an error in giving it to you. Whatever. But you shouldn't have gotten it and now you have to pay some of it back."

There are plenty of tactics you can take if the government tells you that you owe $900K and you don't have it. However, ignoring the whole thing is not one of those options.

Amarante

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:32 pm

Fox wrote:

Under normal circumstances, this kind of thing is worked out by lawyers and the Justice Department in proverbial smoked-filled rooms. In fact, much of the time, it doesn't even carry the stigma of dishonesty -- it's more like the government says, "Look, you applied for and received $X that you really weren't entitled to. Or maybe you were 100 percent honest and we made an error in giving it to you. Whatever. But you shouldn't have gotten it and now you have to pay some of it back."

There are plenty of tactics you can take if the government tells you that you owe $900K and you don't have it. However, ignoring the whole thing is not one of those options.

Into the equation, you must throw in the deterrent impact in terms of why the Feds - in whatever sphere - decide to investigate or take action. The SEC, the IRS and other Federal agencies will make a decision based on visibility. You can't get every miscreant but the expectation is that someone who might be tempted will decided they don't want to run the risk of doing the time.

Almost everyone of us deals with the IRS or comparable tax entity. The IRS is very strategic. Of course, they are going to go where the money is which is why higher income people are audited more often. However, even within that subgroup, they are going to decide what will garner headlines and make people think twice about cheating the government. Not that I am suggesting cheating but the normal middle income person has very little chance of being audited unless you make a real blooper like not reporting income that is reported to the IRS because eventually their computers will find you. LOL

But unlikely that they would audit you based on your overestimating the value of your charitable donations or whatever unless they are so far out of line that they alarm their computer algorithms.

amother

Mustard

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:32 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not sure why you seized on the BT example to elaborate on Jewish education in Satmar. I merely said a BT is rarely angry at her parents for raising her according to their own secular ideals. Why should someone be angry that their community raises its young according to theirs - even if that way of life happens to be different than the general society? (Which reminds me of the subculture vs counter-culture lesson we just completed in sociology class.)

I had to face several difficulties in my adult life and I blamed the system for a lot of my pain. With the help of a (nonJewish) therapist I was able to resolve a lot of that, and separate what was dysfunctional from what was basically a system of values that I was personally having issues with. It also helped me shake off the protective mantle of victimhood.

I find it hard to believe that the piece of paper itself is what triggers so much anger in you. If there's anything more to it, I advise working through your stuff to get to the bottom of your pain.

Amarante

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:38 pm

Fox wrote:

On the topic of "quality" education, my observation over the years has been that people who are intellectually inquisitive will become decently educated no matter how lousy a school they attend. People who are not intellectually inquisitive can attend a competitive, top-notch school and walk away with no more erudition or perspective than they had when they began.
.

My understanding is that the basics are not being taught. For example, the Amish only go through eighth grade but their education contains basic English reading and writing skills as well as math so that they are equipped to function - I.e. they can read handbooks if necessary. Of course that paradigm might be breaking down since their communities have problems with the expanding population not being able to afford land and needing to move into the "English" community more and more.

Here, it is not an issue of whether someone has an appreciation of Baroque music or can discuss the symbolism of yellow in The Great Gatsby but having basic reading and writing skills.

youngishbear

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:48 pm

Amarante wrote:

Wow after all these pages...

I don't know a single chassidish girls' school that doesn't provide basic reading and writing skills, and I have family all over Brooklyn and upstate NY.

The boys are a different shameful story.

Fox

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:02 pm

Amarante wrote:

Here, it is not an issue of whether someone has an appreciation of Baroque music or can discuss the symbolism of yellow in The Great Gatsby but having basic reading and writing skills.

In that case, the quality of high school education is irrelevant. The most important activity occurs in the primary grades, and that has more to do with school leadership and administration than the degree of community insularity.

Inadequate principals and administrators always have plenty of excuses, and in more insular communities, they have one more they can add to the list: "What can we do? The parents don't want secular education." Yet there are a number of excellent Chassidish schools (e.g. Tiferes Bnos, Skver Schools in Quebec) whose students get top marks on standardized tests, and presumably those parents don't hold significantly different hashkafos from parents at lousy schools.

Just because parents aren't clamoring for you to do a better job doesn't mean you can't do it anyway!

amother

Mustard

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:16 pm

Fox wrote:

I have to point out that parents at small independent schools (you mentioned TB) care a lot more than the parents in large mosdos. The big schools are almost like public school in the range of types (socioeconomic classes, intellectual range, and motivation levels) that they must accept, wheras smaller startup schools tend to have a dedicated parent body.

And this is important because the point teachers complain about is that the students don't care to learn because they are infected by their parents' lackadaisical attitude.

But you're right that it's not a hashkafah problem. And I agree with your statement that those who want to learn will do so with the raw materials provided.

Satmar girls school has a huge support infrastructure for kriah, reading, social emotional support, and other tutoring. Even the boys have a lot of remedial backup in place.

They also have professional development programs for teachers, but unfortunately the high turnover rate makes it a bit like shoveling the snow during a blizzard. There are a ton of schoolwide projects and programs to teach verbal math problem solving skills, map skills, reading comprehension, reading fluency, writing, and connecting to texts. (Shoutout to an amazing curriculum director co-principal!)

They have huge expensive (NYSTL sponsored) textbooks for every subject that teachers use in class, and I devoured the untaught chapters at home on my own time.

It was there, people. We were not underserved.

Fox

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:27 pm

Amarante wrote:

I thought there was general agreement that some boys schools are deficient end in the basics.

I cross-posted with you and YoungishBear.

My sons attended an OOT cheder best described as "Chassidish Light." The parents are generally not Chassidish and are certainly not actively opposed to secular education.

However, that didn't go very far in actually making the secular education any better. There was no real curriculum and no concept of building on layers of knowledge. Each teacher did what he wanted, and the results were about what you'd expect.

When a new menahel was hired, he did something counter-intuitive: he refused to have any discussion about the relative importance of secular education, and he actually slashed the amount of time allocated to secular studies.

However, he handpicked teachers and avoided treating them like second-class citizens. He worked with various people to put together a curriculum and actually outsourced math for a while. The curriculum ensures that every minute is used productively and that secular studies complements Torah learning. For example, when the boys begin learning Mishnayos Sukkah, they also start a unit on Geometry that fits in with the Mishnayos they're learning.

And, needless to say, test scores and other measurements of progress have dramatically improved.

What I really learned from watching this unfold is that having endless arguments about the importance of secular studies is a complete waste of time and totally irrelevant. The menahel didn't engage with parents or others who were opposed to secular education; in fact, he placated them by reducing the time spent.

Instead of arguing, he basically told every single parent and kibbitzer, "Yes, you're right." Then he went ahead and made sure that the time was used effectively. I think that's a brilliant approach that could definitely succeed in a large percentage of schools.

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:30 pm

youngishbear wrote:

I have brothers who went to Satmar, Skver, and Pupa and have nephews who attended Spink and Krasna and they all learned reading, writing, and math. I know that Bobov teaches those subjects as well which means that lots of chasidishe boys are learning basic english, at least in WB and BP. I have family members in Monroe and New Square who never learned English so I guess it is dependent on where the boy is growing up and/or which school they attend.

gp2.0

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:43 pm

amother wrote:

Lol I did the same thing. We got huge books and we never learned the whole thing. Every year I devoured the entire literature book during the first month of school.