FBI raid in Monsey - Amother enabled

amother

Mustard

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 10:57 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Nah by the time I was in upper elementary/high school they already had the "kosher" literature books that were printed already censored by a frum company.

Well the old Satmar elementary building had a zillion nooks and crannies. I found the oddest books tucked into strange corners, not necessarily student textbooks.

There was this collection of short stories I spirited away from behind a steam pipe in the summer during fifth grade daycamp (the pool was in the yard there...) When I realized it was romance stories I was terrified to be caught returning it.

Maya

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 10:57 am

amother wrote:

I have brothers who went to Satmar, Skver, and Pupa and have nephews who attended Spink and Krasna and they all learned reading, writing, and math. I know that Bobov teaches those subjects as well which means that lots of chasidishe boys are learning basic english, at least in WB and BP. I have family members in Monroe and New Square who never learned English so I guess it is dependent on where the boy is growing up and/or which school they attend.

אויך מיר געלערנט Smile

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:12 am

amother wrote:

I'm not sure why you seized on the BT example to elaborate on Jewish education in Satmar. I merely said a BT is rarely angry at her parents for raising her according to their own secular ideals. Why should someone be angry that their community raises its young according to theirs - even if that way of life happens to be different than the general society? (Which reminds me of the subculture vs counter-culture lesson we just completed in sociology class.)

I had to face several difficulties in my adult life and I blamed the system for a lot of my pain. With the help of a (nonJewish) therapist I was able to resolve a lot of that, and separate what was dysfunctional from what was basically a system of values that I was personally having issues with. It also helped me shake off the protective mantle of victimhood.

I find it hard to believe that the piece of paper itself is what triggers so much anger in you. If there's anything more to it, I advise working through your stuff to get to the bottom of your pain.

Being raised differently from the general society is not the same as being denied a secular education/accredited high school diploma. Bais Yakov girls are being raised different from the general society, yet they are able to learn Chumash, Rashi, etc and get an accredited diploma while they are at it. It is not mutually exclusive.

A BT may not have the benefits of growing up frum but she still has the benefits of getting an education and doing other things that a Satmar girl can't (I described it in more detail above) and if she is denied that as well, then she should be angry at her parents/community. Satmar girls don't get the Jewish education that Bais Yakov girls are getting either so why shouldn't they be angry at their community for denying them these opportunities and/or the ability to graduate high school with an accredited diploma?

You call it a piece of paper which seems like a defense mechanism on your part. Obviously that piece of paper means nothing to you but for the people that do earn it, it means that they put in several years of sweat, tears, and hard work to obtain it and that is an accomplishment that should be taken seriously. It's sad that you diminish it. However, if you think it is insignificant then why did you get your GED? (that is if you actually got one. You may have gotten a fake diploma which would explain why you think a real diploma is worthless) And why are you bothering to go to college, what do you think you will gain out of having the piece of paper saying that you graduated college?

Maya

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:29 am

amother wrote:

You can mock it but at least two of my brothers own their own businesses. My nephews are too young so only time will tell.

Again, the fact that men own business and become wealthy doesn't mean they get a good education. I can point you to the tens of thousands of guys who DON'T have businesses or enough skills to get by. They are the majority, not the wealthy ones, even if משה שמואל גאלדשטיין owns B&H.

Last edited by Maya on Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mustard

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:30 am

amother wrote:

There you go twisting my words.

I didn't say the paper is worthless. Far from it.

I explained that Satmar prepared me well for it, and I simply needed to go through two months of extra work to get the paper evidence. It would have been nice to have it handed to me by graduation, but I am not stewing in anger over the fact that I didn't. In the scheme of things getting the TASC (GED new version) was not a big deal and I'm not sure why it is so huge a mountain to you.

The culture I come from does not value higher education. That is unfortunate but I accept it as part of the package. I do not feel that I was deprived, abused, or neglected. I'm sorry that you do and I wish you luck in letting go of your resentments. I suggested you look a bit deeper to see what else is making you so angry.

amother

Violet

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:40 am

amother wrote:

I have 3 female family members, graduates from Satmar Williamsburg who are in the medical field as RN's, and social workers.
I am a Satmar graduate who has opened her own business and am dealing with "big people" in my industry.

Im having trouble picturing it, because Ive never come across Satmar graduate nurses, etc. Has their (and most Satmar graduates who got advanced degrees) secular edication affected their level of frumkeit? If yes, to what degree?

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:47 am

Maya wrote:

I think that the same is true for the girls as well. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be and there are plenty of girls who would have benefited from getting an accredited diploma. Just because some girls get a fake diploma or don't struggle in college after getting their GED, doesn't mean that all Satmar girls have the same experiences. I have heard from several Satmar girls about their struggles with college and felt sad for them because they were very smart but obviously handicapped by their background. But then again, they may have gone to a real college (not Touro or online) where they were required to take math and science classes with labs and were at a major disadvantage because of their background (especially if they were competing with highly educated kids from elite secular/Jewish high schools). I have also heard of some girls who took classes online and figured out ways to cheat (by having the book in front of them when taking tests or by having someone else write their papers, etc) which is not something you can do when you have to go to class and take the test or write a paper in front of the professor.

People need to stop generalizing it because it isn't helpful to the Satmar girls who do struggle and need the help to succeed in college.

Maya

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:05 pm

amother wrote:

People need to stop generalizing it because it isn't helpful to the Satmar girls who do struggle and need the help to succeed in college.

With this I definitely agree, and I apologize again if my comments came across like that.

Leaving the issues of accredited diplomas and college acceptance aside for a moment and focusing on the actual implemented teaching curriculum at school, I still maintain it was adequate according to most people's standards. That's my opinion.

watergirl

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:05 pm

amother wrote:

Not to nitpick, but people keep on saying that Touro is not a real college. Have you tried it? Its very real, and very challenging. People who are there are respected and serious students. Same goes for online college. I am currently in college (look at my age!) and am doing it through Thomas Edison, with online courses through my local community college and also real classroom classes locally as well - online classes are MURDER. And btw all online classes that require a lab make you actually go into a local community college lab and do a co-listed course. Just sayin'.

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:23 pm

Maya wrote:

I have a niece in a MO school. Her education in elementary school is way better andmuch higher than the one my other niece is getting in her Satmar BP high school. Not to mention that my niece in the MO school is also learning Chumash and Rashi which Satmar girls don't learn. For that matter, my niece in Pupa BP is getting a better education, both secular and Jewish studies, than my niece in Satmar as well. But if you feel like you got an adequate education in Satmar WB then that is the only thing that matters and I am sorry for dismissing your opinion about it.

Maya

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:30 pm

amother wrote:

That's exactly why I used the word adequate, not top notch. My own kids are in MO schools and I can compare the education.

Also, I want to stress that I am exclusively focusing on general studies curriculum, not religious studies in which we learned diddly squat. So that's not part of this equation at all.

Having a different opinion is not dismissing mine, it's just different Smile

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:38 pm

Maya wrote:

My niece in the MO school is getting a top notch education.

My niece in the Pupa school is getting an adequate education.

My niece in Satmar is NOT getting an adequate education and is being screwed over because of it. And she is in high school while the other two are still in elementary school which makes it even worse.

If the three girls go to the same college and take the same classes then my niece from Satmar would struggle while my the other ones would do just fine. And that should not be acceptable but sadly it is and I don't know what to do to change things. It certainly doesn't help when people dismiss it either because then no one would care enough to change anything and we want to avoid that at all costs.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:45 pm

amother wrote:

At this point, this many years into the "system", it isnt the system that is screwing her over, its not the school and it isnt Satmar. Its her parents, who are knowingly putting her into the school. At this day and age, anyone who knowingly puts their kid into a school with subpar education is CHOOSING to do so. Take the blame away from the schoosl that give fake diplomas or whatever, and send to a real school. Any person who is going through school today and feels that they are getting screwed over as you say, its their parents who are doing it. Knowingly.

Mevater

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:49 pm

amother wrote:

Parents are in a difficult place, often having to choose between family relationships, involving the people they love, and better educations for their children.