Since when does doing a Chessed come with pay?

amother

Silver

Thu, Aug 04 2016, 3:59 pm

Beingreal wrote:

Now I'm really irked and need to vent because I'm finding that nowadays when someone needs a o, or someone to help them with a Mitzvah, it's for pay! Now, you are probably confused, so I will give you an example. I don't drive and where I live we have carpools and walk pools, no buses. I'm also expecting and walking to school is 20 minutes plus an uphill. I've posted on the community posts to ask if anyone can take my son for me in the mornings...(the afternoons I work there and it's all downhill so that is easy)...but everyone wants pay or that I take a turn to drive...can anyone understand that I don't drive and it's hard for me to even ask?

Hi! Your post reminds me of when my daughter was six years old and one of my friends who had a daughter in my daughter's class had a baby! And it was very hard for her to get her daughter to school. So I would pick up her daughter on my way to school every day and drop our daughters off. I never asked or expected money, but at the end of the year she got me a cute pin and lovely note and I was very touched.
Sorry you are going through this, maybe someone will come through for you but if not I think it would be worth your while to pay. And if it's someone's job they will be more reliable I would think. good luck.

heidi

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 6:03 am

OP, it sounds like you are confusing chessed with usury.
There are times in everyone's life that people need help. Usually for a few weeks or maximum a month. And I think people are willing to help in an emergency.
But you are in a situation where you chose to live far away from your children's school. And not to drive. And to get pregnant. What exactly is the crisis/emergency? Why should people be running to help? What will charge in the next month that will enable you to take care of your children without the help of the community?
Trust me, people are pulled thin. Whether with their children or husband or a demanding boss. The Orthodox Jewish community is an absolute wellspring of kindness and giving. But this kindness and giving takes a toll on the givers. Whether monetarily, less time with their families or coming late to work.
Expecting people to give endlessly is not fair.

sourstix

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 8:56 am

So the only thing that is making it hard for you to take your son is be. It's hard for you to walk. I get it. There are people that have very hard pregnancies. I had very hard ones. And I almost fainted once on the way home from taking ds to school and I also don't drive. So I get it. It's not a world where people have time. People are busy. Most people work these days. I also find that working women are so tight in time that they simply don't have extra time. Doing cheesed is not something they have much time. It's sad. But thinking about it if it's long term it will be hard to get someone. Only if you had a complication then you would probably get more responses. When you seem ok. They are not understanding why they need to do this.

amother

Black

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 9:35 am

Chayalle wrote:

Keep in mind, too, that your child takes up a space in the car. It's not like they're going anyway so why can't they take your child too....but they also have to give up that space in the carpool, that could have been given to another child whose mother does drive, to you.

Where is your husband in this? Does he drive? Can he take your child in the mornings, or do one morning a week so you can join a carpool and be taken care of for all the other days?

I disagree with this, and on one hand agree with the OP. But, don't call it car pool, call it what it is. I need some one to do a chesed for me for the next 3 months, until I have the baby, can't afford to pay, but will be happy to reciprocate the favor any way I can.

It also upsets me when bridal gemach ask for a rental fee. Call it what it is gown rental place. If you want to ask for an optional donation that something else, but if you charge a rental fee, cleaning fee, usage fee, then it's not a gemach

amother

Black

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 10:23 am

ChutzPAh wrote:

Clearly you've never done carpool if your so flippant about how it's no big deal. It is a big deal.

That's why I suggested not to call it car pool, walk pool, etc.
Are there BY girls in your area that need Chesed hours, maybe one of them can walk your child to camp/school etc.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 10:47 am

Op, there is someone in my neighborhood who doesn't drive and she made arrangement with a friend that she would watch the friends other children(younger ones that are not in school) while the friend drives to pick up her child from school in addition to the woman's(who doesn't drive) child ---she does this to try to give something""for the favor
. I do understand the need for chesed but at the same Tim as busy moms/workers...it is a difference to accept to take someone's child not part of carpool and personally I would love to do chesed but find I m so busy doing for my kids/spouse that I have no time for chesed for anyonelse!!
. and even if ur son is ready, the time just "gets lost" even if its "on the way"---I used to drive 2 frum women to work everyday --it was a chesed they never offered to drive bec they didn't hav available car and I didn't ask them to pay!! But one person came to my house waited outside til I left and this was so helpful! But even though picking other person up was "on the way "and dropping off was"on the way" it DID TAKE TIME FROM MY COMMUTE and I felt like a car service like another job!!I don't know many ppl. Who would offer to drive me everyday if I'm not reciprocating!!
. getting /picking children to and from school is like another job we parents must do so its hard to offer to do this as a chesed wen the parents are already overwhelmed trying to get their own kids to school and then run to work....
Maybe if u offered to be waiting at the persons house so that wen she is ready to go, ur child can just join, maybe that's easier for someone who has extra room!!
Anyway I'm sorry u are going through this !

octopus

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 10:58 am

california2 wrote:

It's a lot easier to note the chessed others are NOT doing, than get out and do your own. You may simply feel like this is the time in your life when you need to be on the receiving end. Well, do you have plans for transitioning to the "giving" end? The others moms driving to school must also have similar age kids, so they aren't that far off your time in life, if at all. Some must be facing challenges less visible than pregnancy, but no less all consuming. I hear a lot about the lack of support in our communities, but seldom from people who have "paid into" the system for years and suddenly when they need help, find none available. Those who have helped others with no expectation of return on investment often find those investments pay unexpectedly well indeed. If you had taken other people's children to school for the year before you were pregnant, you'd probably find those parents would be more than willing to try to help you now. And I'm sure there's a reason why YOU couldn't help last year - just as there's a reason why other moms can't help you now.

I think this is a mean post. I'm the type of person that will help out ppl and expect nothing in return. I wouldn't do favors for ppl in the hopes that one day, someone better do me a favor. OTOH I can't stand when ppl think "oh, it's just on the way, it's no big deal!" That attitude is completely wrong. But I think op sincerely needs help. She says she has trouble asking and it hurts to ask. To me, that is a sign that if op could manage, she would really be doing this herself and not reaching out to others. She doesn't sound like a user. Your post struck me as really callous.

ora_43

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 10:59 am

heidi wrote:

Expecting people to give endlessly is not fair.

I disagree with this. There are many situations where someone could need help for years, even for their entire life. If the need is genuine, the request is fair.

It's also not really relevant what decisions people made in the past, only what decisions they are making now. Eg if they refuse to take a (legal, safe) paying job now, it's reasonable to not give to them now; if they didn't go to school and had 9 kids over the past decade, it's not reasonable to not give now because of poor planning 1-10 years ago. We can't change the past. (And many of us have made poor decisions; it's just that some people suffer a lot more for them.) (eta : am NOT saying OP has made poor decisions; she didn't say why it is she doesn't drive or if this problem was something she could reasonably have prevented; I can imagine several scenarios where it wouldn't have been)

I just think OP will need to explain to her friends why her need is genuine. Eg "I know it's a lot to ask, but I can't drive for medical reasons and we have no money right now" as opposed to just "hey could you please do this for me."

Last edited by ora_43 on Sun, Aug 07 2016, 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

It also upsets me when bridal gemach ask for a rental fee. Call it what it is gown rental place. If you want to ask for an optional donation that something else, but if you charge a rental fee, cleaning fee, usage fee, then it's not a gemach

The rental fee is what keeps gowns available. It keeps people from renting gowns they won't actually use (as a back-up option or whatever else) and helps ensure that people take the rental seriously (ie, treat it well, return it on time). It makes it so that the gemach can afford to stay open and to obtain new gowns, since a gemach with stock entirely from the 1980s wouldn't be very helpful.

Actual gown rental from a for-profit place costs 4-5 times as much at a minimum, IME.

IMO if the people involved aren't making a profit, it's a gemach. Even if it's not possible to make the service 100% free for everyone.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 11:36 am

Ora43. there really is no reason the gemach can't be free
The gown gemach near me costs $75 and up and yes that's cheaper than renting but I don't think they need to charge so much as a lot of gemachs where my sisinlaws live (various places) are actually free to borrow the gown and saying they need charge to ensure they get new gowns and that ppl. Take it seriously, is ridiculous since the ones that charge always have rich ppl donating their custom gowns that they will never wear again. for free!! And in other gemachs with no charge, there's just as much a nice new selection since plenty rich ppl. Have custom gowns that they donate since they don't reuse it!! I always thought the price of gown gemachs by me very expensive especially wen I'm paying other wedding expenses ---but its still a chesed and its chesed for pay!!

amother

Black

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 11:50 am

ora_43 wrote:

I've been to a gemach where the fee was $500 plus cleaning charges.
Ended up buying a dress for $180 plus fixing for $50. I just thought it's ridiculous to call it a gemach and charge $500. This was in Brooklyn. Perhaps just 1 bad experience.

amother

Puce

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 12:13 pm

amother wrote:

I rented my gown for $2200 and that was considered cheap for a rental. That's a LOT more than $75. That's a joke. Knowing what the prices are for rentals I wouldn't even go there to complain about the nominal fee. It can cover rent, minor repairs on gowns from small accidents that inevitably occur, paying someone to be there for you to try on gowns and make sure they are in suitable condition, cleaning (unless you clean it yourself...but it may need to be cleaned again if someone gets make up on it while trying it on). $75 for borrowing a gown is hardly making it for profit. And while some people may donate gowns many want to be paid at least something for theirs. There may be free ones. Those clearly have someone subsidizing. Complaining about a nominal fee that is drastically lower than the going rate is just getting petty.

out-of-towner

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 12:17 pm

amother wrote:

Hate to break it to you (and this should be a spinoff), but you could have custom made a gown for yourself for that price, or at least bought one from David's bridal or similar and built it up.

amother

Puce

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 12:36 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Hate to break it to you (and this should be a spinoff), but you could have custom made a gown for yourself for that price, or at least bought one from David's bridal or similar and built it up.

It was customized for me. That's how these gown rentals work. You're not taking off the rack and wearing as is. They took a top piece and bottom piece that were used by others but changed it up completely for me. It may as well have been a new gown I just didn't own it. And I didn't have a choice because I'm hard to fit. And since I never plan on getting married again, and even if I did it wouldn't be in the same gown, it wouldn't have helped me to own it. And that's the going rate for that service (customizing for you and then taking the pieces for the next person).

amother

Black

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 12:42 pm

amother wrote:

We are getting off topic.
My point is OP should call it what it is.
She needs chesed, not a carpool, walk pool.
Unless you are willing and able to bring home their kids.
She can take in the am and you in the pm.

BTW, how do you get to work?
Can DS go later to camp, and you drop him off on the way to work.

zaq

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 3:17 pm

OT, but a gmach is not necessarily a charity in and of itself--sometimes it's a business the proceeds of which support a charity. In such cases, the cost may be fairly high because the beneficiarirs are not the customers, but the clients of the charity, and the people running this gmach--which should really be called "boutique to benefit the Yourcharitynamehere"--want to make as much money as possible for that charity.

Furthermore, providing goods and services at a reduced rate is also a chessed--possibly an even greater chessed than giving them free, as the needy client has the dignity of paying her way and doesn't have to feel like a charity case.

tryinghard

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 9:17 pm

Interesting to see the two different attitudes towards chessed here, whether actions or gemachs - one is "chesed never costs anything" and the other is "chessed means helping somebody out"
The latter would imply that anything other than charging the going professional rate for a particular good or service is a chessed. IMO, this is the only way that you can a) not walk around resenting the world when you are in need, and b) provide chessed to others - sometimes you can give and give of yourself and expect nothing in return, and sometimes that compensation, whether monetary or otherwise, no matter how small, is what enables you to help out without burning out.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Aug 07 2016, 11:22 pm

puce, when you have $2200 to spend for your gown, it is no wonder you are calling me petty.
Obviously, I am someone who has very little to spend(maybe you are not used to ppl. in that category), and most gowns are donated free to the gemach, otherwise the fee would be higher!!
However, like I stated, it is still a chesed which I appreciate, as the person is giving of her time and house to make this available to me and others.