"Protecting" a child from your spouse

amother

Sienna

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 10:23 am

amother wrote:

Neither of the situations you describe require "protecting" the kids. He lost patience, big deal. Most parents do occasionally.

Okay, maybe protecting was the wrong word, maybe mitigating would be a better word. I also lose my patience with my kids sometimes but some key differences would be (aside from the fact that I do it waaaay less frequently):

I myself try to protect my kids from myself, or mitigate my bad behavior, usually by apologizing after, nothing major, just validating them and letting them know it wasn't okay and/or about them (so something like "I'm sorry I lost patience and reacted to your request for abc short temperedly an hour ago, not that this makes it okay but I was tired/stressed/whatever and I'm sorry you had to suffer because of that..."

I also would be and am happy for someone else to try to "defend" or "protect" my kids if I am in a situation where I am overreacting. I think their emotional well being is more important than my possibly feeling undermined or whatever. I also am fairly confident in my parenting abilities and relationship with them and wouldn't really feel undermined or threatened if something like that happened. DH cannot tolerate being contradicted or disagreed with.

I am not "scary." The reason why I (and my kids) don't say anything to DH when he is in one of those "moods" is because we're scared of how he will react and because it will not help, it will just make things worse. The example I gave of while he was driving. . . it felt unsafe to me (stopping suddenly and swerving across three lanes) and I DID offer/ask to drive (he said no) but there was no point in me pushing it because it would make him angrier and he'd drive even less safely (very aggressively, ie on someone's tail, 100 miles an hour, etc). DH is someone you need to walk on eggshells around when he is in some moods (which happens more frequently than typical people, IMO Sad

and I don't think that is necessarily something that should be ignored.

But in any event. . . so you're basically saying that if someone loses patience with their kids (which I realize everyone, myself included, does), nothing should be done to help the kids feel better about it, process it, prevent it from happening again, etc?

amother

Sienna

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 10:28 am

amother wrote:

Adding that...

I think a lot of the ultimate outcome, though, depends on dh's willingness to apologize to the kids later and tell them he should not have reacted that way. They need to learn it's wrong, even if they will still be afraid of it happening. I find dh regularly initially reluctant to do this, because he fears it will diminish his authority with them in the future.

Black sheep, speaking up then and there can produce difficult results. If dh had already lost his temper, he often will not react well to being contradicted in front of the kids, and will turn his rhetoric on his wife, which is even scarier for the kids even if I know it will pass within minutes. Sometimes I do it anyway, because that particular incident seems bad enough for the child, but it rarely ends well. It's hard, because conventional wisdom tells us not to contradict so we don't confuse the children and for the sake of the husband (think "surrendered wife"). Some husbands need to be contradicted, but it still has the same negative effects take on the kids and marriage.

What you describe (as far as speaking up right away) applies to DH. He has (at my urging) apologized sometimes and it makes a huge difference but he's not really willing to, he usually maintains that he's right and the kid(s) are wrong and tough luck on them.

amother

Khaki

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 10:34 am

Op, you described my dh so well!
The only difference is that I grew up with abuse and neglect.
I don't know what is normal.
I don't know what is over the top.
I don't know what is me being triggered.
I don't know what is bad, and me being triggered.

I am in therapy. He only comes to marriage counseling "because I have a problem". So he's being a good husband, and "participating in my therapy".

I don't know if it's helping. I wish I had a practical guide as how to respond to him when he acts out, and to know when he is over the top, vs. normal parenting.

Even my therapist can't help me with that.

I was hoping to see some of those answers on this thread.

Hug

op! You are not alone!

amother

Sienna

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 10:35 am

As far as discussing in therapy. . . I guess I can try to bring it up again but as I mentioned, I am not considering divorcing him over this, he has more major, pressing issues that need to be discussed in therapy. I've brought it up a few times in the past but he doesn't agree (that he's doing anything wrong by yelling at them etc for minor infractions) so we end up spending an entire session just devoted to one instance (what was going on for him, what was going on for me, what might have been going on for the kids, blah blah blah) and at the end of the session, yes he might understand what he did "wrong" that specific instance but how does that help me going forward? He can't generalize it to other instances.

I've kind of given up on him (changing) and really need to focus on just making it okay for the kids, so far it seems the only advice I've gotten is from black sheep, to apologize to them for his behavior later in the day? And for me not standing up to him while it was happening? I do feel bad about that but I think it would be counterproductive to do so (protest what's going on while it's happening) but in any event, any other ideas aside from that (not that that is not helpful too, it is, thank you)

amother

Ginger

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 10:41 am

OP I very much relate to what you posted about your DH. I have been a parent who has had to protect her children from her DH, and though things aren't perfect, we have come a long way with lots of intervention and therapy B"H.

To get where we are now, my DH had to explore WHY his expectations of his kids were not on par with the reality of where they are holding, and WHY he expects his kids to be perfect rather than normal and age-appropriate.

In DH's case, alot of this was rooted in his very dysfunctional upbringing and much abuse at the hands of his father; and his belief in his own obligation to somehow raise a perfect family. He had no barometer to measure what is normal and what is not. He has learned to live, love, accept, and let go, and has vastly improved his relationship with both me and our children.

The advice I got in therapy insofar as my role with my children when DH was disciplining excessively was pretty similar to blacksheep's post. Perhaps it depends on the age of your children, but it's okay (and important) to validate to kids that something is excessive when that's what it is. My kids understand that DH grew up with a tough father (they've seen their grandfather in action, and they are not stupid) and is working on himself, and loves them. It was important to validate to them that they are deserving of the best kind of parenting, and that we are working on it.

Seas

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 10:50 am

seeker wrote:

This.

It could be that you picked the wrong examples to share, but neither of them sounds so abusive that the kids need to be "protected" from their father. Granted it's not the most pleasant parenting and these kinds of things could leave you with bad memories. But if you can be empathetic and stabilizing, rather than defensive and divisive, it will help everyone emerge more healthy.

I second that (not really second as others have written the same). IMO you'll do more damage to your kids by undermining him in the way you described, than your husband by being overly strict.

BTW I'm not a posek but on the face of it, it would appear kibbud av valid applies here, which means children must show the utmost respect and subservience to their parents.

amother

Ginger

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 10:54 am

Seas wrote:

Kibbud Av applies - discussing with children where a hurtful reaction comes from, and validating their pain - does not undermine Kibbud Av. In fact, my children understanding their father has lead to increased respect and a closer relationship, not the opposite.

I don't think the key word here is undermining their father - that should not be done. Rather, talking to your kids and explaining that their father is coming from somewhere, and working on himself, will lead to greater understanding and minimize the damage. You don't want your kids to grow up and repeat this either.

Of course, this has to come along with growth and hard work from your husband, and that should be a big focus in therapy.

amother

Ginger

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 11:30 am

amother wrote:

If standing up to him in front of the kids is going to lead to even worse behavior than talk to them later. but you must teach them right from wrong, and you need to validate their feelings.

I don't know if I'm projecting my own experiences because your situation could be different, but your DH's issues could be rooted in a lack of knowing what's normal.

We've met some well-respected community members with a bunch of children who were not behaving like perfect little angels,and when that happens I point it out to DH so he can see that even good people have challenges they deal with normally with their kids. Normal siblings annoy each other, kvetch, are tired and hungry, challenge their parents, etc....DH has had to learn not to lose control and cope with normal, normally.

amother

Pink

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 12:36 pm

amother wrote:

If standing up to him in front of the kids is going to lead to even worse behavior than talk to them later. but you must teach them right from wrong, and you need to validate their feelings.

I agree. But there is a danger here. If dh doesn't apologize, the kids can actually pick a side. I have one older boy who gets annoyed with me when I try to explain, because he feels I am undermining his father, and he will decide that since his father didn't say otherwise, Shprintzah must have deserved what she got and Ima doesn't understand. I try to complement and defer him to his father as much as possible to even the balance.

Also, not stepping in can be very hard when a child is getting screamed at and shrinking into a ball. Or when it happens, say, at the beginning a of a four hour car trip so you can't talk to the child alone for awhile.

Finally, I agree that dh does not understand what is normal for kids. But I also think he sometimes doesn't understand when a particular child needs a little leeway. And I know that he believes that contemporary child psychology is wrong and too lenient. And I also know that he's a little sensory when it comes to being overwhelmed by too much noise and a little emotionally reactive when it comes to being overwhelmed by too much emotion. (He's definitely one of those husbands who can't handle it if I'm very upset about something, even unrelated to him.) As an adult, I expect more from him than from my kids when it comes to this. But I think sometimes he is stretched to the edge of his capabilities. So I try to mold the environment to ease up on him, and if he blows anyway, I have to do damage control. And often blame myself for not managing him/things well enough, which I know is ridiculous, and yet there it is.

amother

Copper

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 1:40 pm

Wow, op, I have wanted to post this exact same question so many times but could not figure out how to word it. I completely relate to your issue.

I would describe my dh's style exactly as you did yours. I'd never call him abusive. It would not be an accurate or appropriate use of the word. But he reacts as you describe. Based on his own stress level, he will at times completely overreact to normal kid/preteen/teen behavior. Something doesn't have to be officially labelable as "abuse" for it to be characterized as extremely unpleasant, emotionally damaging, or plain old mean. It's also completely inconsistent which is scary, unpredictable, and unfair.

Presenting a consistent and united parenting approach is nice in theory, but I cannot pretend to agree that my 9 year old bellyaching about not wanting to go to the zoo is evidence of family treason. Just because you are stressed out about having accidentally deleted your groupon passes doesn't mean the child should be screamed and raged at. Part of being a rational adult is modifying your response to a child DESPITE your inner state. And I'll be dam-ed if I am going to teach my child otherwise. B'ah, he'll be a dad one day too, and an adult who has to function amongst people kindly and effectively.

So at these times, I will privately acknowledge to my sad, insulted, confused child that when Abba is stressed out he often loses his temper. I'll acknowledge that some people are better than others at controlling themselves, and that it is an important skill in life, and hopefully Abba will get better at it (blah blah blah.... because I am quietly fuming at him) because adults need to learn and grow too.

Then I'll point out that we had agreed to go to the zoo, and we all have to work together as a family and somebody kvetching about it can be overwhelming and stressful to parents who are trying to make a nice day for everybody.

For my older kids I've also made the point that as a child it is important to show respect by being aware of your parent's shortcomings and not pushing when you know they are getting upset. That hopefully in life we have relationships in which there is a give and take, we allow for other people's weaknesses, within reason, and expect the same to be done for us.

It's a difficult balancing act. I try to distinguish between completely unfair reactions (which I will definitely respond to for my child with varying degrees of tact and effectiveness), and issues which are legitimate parenting differences (in which I say to myself, my reaction may have been more moderate, but this is a legitimate "strict" parent reaction on his part, and not an unfair overreaction).

I'm sorry, op. It's not easy at all.

amother

Brunette

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 1:59 pm

I just want to say to those who feel like giving up on their DH ever changing - my DH is different in ways than the one described here but also has his things that I worry about. He reacts very negatively when our kids get needy or difficult. I've tried at various times to explain to him that his reactions are counterproductive, etc etc. He never heard it. Suddenly a few nights ago he told me like it's this major revelation that he came to on his own. I guess it had to come to him from his own realization even though he was unable to hear it from me. I guess you never know. I hope this will be a turning point in his parenting. I'm sure it won't change overnight but I think understanding is a major step in the right direction - I myself am far from perfect but I see awareness as my saving grace in those times, that at least if I'm doing it wrong I know what I'm doing and can try to tone it down and make up for it as soon as I can.

amother

Mauve

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 2:13 pm

I can relate also. I don't want to criticize my DH and if I argue against him with them present, I get put down as well and get no where. He's more angry at the child and at me - it's more upsetting to the child.

I try to talk to the older ones about how to relate better, communicate with him better, so he won't get frustrated. When they complain about his behavior I don't answer (maybe sigh) because I don't want to put him down, but I don't want to defend either. Not easy, not really sure what the right thing is.

Although the OP isn't giving extreme examples - if the anger is misplaced, more severe than it should be and frequent (a rare inappropriate blowup is forgivable), it is traumatizing to the children.

naomi2

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 3:39 pm

my two cents-
can you get one or two good parenting books and learn "bchavrusa" one chapter a week. he needs to understand that his impatience and anger is affecting the children negatively. if he is willing to change, imagine how much good could come out of changing the way he views his episodes, what he expects from his children. if he can learn better childraising tools, maybe the family can avoid a few less episodes a week. also, if he is open to change, he should learn to say "im sorry" it can be right away or later. but acknowledgement of a problem can go a long way for your children.

bluebird

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 7:09 pm

amother wrote:

I am not "scary." The reason why I (and my kids) don't say anything to DH when he is in one of those "moods" is because we're scared of how he will react and because it will not help, it will just make things worse. The example I gave of while he was driving. . . it felt unsafe to me (stopping suddenly and swerving across three lanes) and I DID offer/ask to drive (he said no) but there was no point in me pushing it because it would make him angrier and he'd drive even less safely (very aggressively, ie on someone's tail, 100 miles an hour, etc). DH is someone you need to walk on eggshells around when he is in some moods (which happens more frequently than typical people, IMO Sad

and I don't think that is necessarily something that should be ignored.

Did anyone read this? OP, what you are describing is not normal parental frustration spilling over. You are actively afraid of your husband. Your children are afraid of your husband. You are worried that he will engage in behavior that could result in all of you being maimed or killed.

Your husband needs professional help to manage anger, right now.

amother

Orange

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 8:48 pm

Thanks for this thread. I'm actually crying as I type. Just did bedtime with the kids and my dh told our four year old son to get into bed but he first went to his siblings bed to get something. Dh said it again then he grabbed the kid and screamed in his ear"do you hear me? Do you hear me? Tatty said get into bed!!!!" The screaming was so loud and my ear wasn't right by his mouth. My poor baby started to cry. I usually don't do this but I said"dh, leave the room right now. You are making it worse for all of us by being here" Bh he left nd could be he feels bad but I feel terrible about how he treated our son.

amother

Khaki

Mon, Sep 12 2016, 9:28 pm

amother wrote:

You go girl!!!!