Men Signing Off on How Their Wives Will Dress / School Reqts

saw50st8

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:35 am

amother wrote:

Its not always that parents look down on the other schools. Many times the school system is just very different than how they were raised, or the hashkafah is very different than how their kids are currently being raised as well or the social circles are different too and so on. . Just because a Chassidic or Yeshivish (or other) person has issues with some new school criteria, they shouldn't have to overhaul their entire lifestyle. Rules and guidelines - especially for parents - need to be broad and fair, not rigid down to the last minute detail of the everyday life.

I don't disagree with that. However, as an adult, if you are willing to sign these rules, you should follow them. Otherwise, find a more appropriate place. If no more appropriate place exists, start a school. Or gather enough parents in the study body to protests. If more people would have protested at the start of the slide to the right, it wouldn't have gone this far. So many people loved when the rules started. "I don't want my kids going to school with families that do XYZ!!" But then the line moved passed where they are and it gets harder.

You often have to make choices in life that may or may not align with your exact hashkafic desires. That may be because of educational needs, social needs or even the rules. If more people voted with their feet (and wallet), schools would adjust to the community. A lot of people love the snobbery though even though things like "no TV" just really means "no actual television but we have a computer for work and watch netflix/hulu/amazon/other web streaming service but we don't have a TV."

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:48 am

jkl wrote:

Excerpt from Rabbi Y. Horowitz on this subject (talking to members of the previous generation):

It is humbling and difficult to come to terms with, let alone say this publicly, but I think that your generation had a far better recipe than ours, though both generations have their successes and failures. You prepared us for secular culture whereas we shelter our children from it. You played offense; we play defense. You celebrated the enrollment of each and every Jewish child to a Mesivta or Beis Yaakov; we send rejection letters. You raised children; we tried to raise gedolim.

Over the past few years, I’ve increasingly felt that the most effective way of reversing the exploding number of kids and adults abandoning Yiddishkeit is to revert to the old-fashioned “Charedi Classic” education my generation was fortunate to receive from yours; and pass on those core values to our children and grandchildren.

http://thebrightbeginnings.com.....hing/

First of all, let me say that Rabbi Yakov Horowitz is an odom gadol, IMO and he should continue to have koach to do what's he doing.
About the bolded: I guess I gave my kids some exposure to secular culture. Living OOT, we had some great options as far as libraries and programs, carefully chosen movies (usually at summer library programs, at home we stuck to documentaries), museums, all sorts of outings that, because we don't have such a large population, weren't gone on in a cocoon of dozens of other frum families. And, later in the game (b"H we didn't have to deal with this earlier, I don't know how you kids manage!) contemporary technology - we did get a computer with (limited, filtered) internet access.

But the exposure is not what I had, and what RYH had. As the saying goes, in our time, Father knew best, now he knows nothing. We did not have a TV in the house. (Still don't.) We didn't go to movies in theaters. We didn't get a daily newspaper in the house, though I occasionally bought the paper.

Not to be nitpicky, but I did want to point this out.

wondergirl

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:21 am

debsey wrote:

The function of the school is to educate people, to foster progression and growth. It's not to be "in touch" with lower standards. Schools are not department stores, who need to cater to their demographic to make a buck. Schools should be leading, not following, their parent body.

If the function of the school is to educate people then why are they not doing that? If the school wants to educate people then they should have sent home a letter with the sources of tznius rules and the reasons why wearing denim, leggings, tight pants, etc are not appropriate. That is how you educate people and inspire them to want to follow the rules, not by forcing parents to follow rules outside of school without providing them with the sources/education of why they have to follow these rules. I would like to know the sources for not allowing grown women to wear denim or leggings etc if they choose to do so. Are all denims banned or is black or white denim is acceptable? If leggings aren't tznius then can I wear pants underneath my skirt instead? Why or why not?

Quite frankly, schools are there to educate their students, not to force the parents to adhere to rigid, arbitrary rules outside of school without providing them the sources and educating them as to why its not tznius (based on halacha, not opinion). And you educate the students by teaching them the halachas and then inspiring them and encouraging them to follow the halachas to the best of their abilities. If you stick to educating people on the halachas then chances are that they will be more willing to follow the halachas as its not forced on to them against their will.

Imagine getting a letter from the school with sources from the Torah explaining why we should not be wearing denim or leggings, etc. I for one would be more inspired and encouraged to follow the Halachas instead of just being forced to follow rules today that were perfectly acceptable yesterday. Wouldn't you?

wondergirl

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:42 am

amother wrote:

What struck me most about this is the requirement that the "father" sign off on this. (And if the parents are divorced????)

And I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with leggings.

If the women only have ankle-length skirts then are they going to be forced to buy new skirts just so they can follow the rules of the school? If so, then is the school going to pay for it? Will the school pay for new sheitels if the women only have ones that dont meet the requirement? If not, then how are parents expected to follow these rules if they cant afford to make the appropriate changes?
Why is it acceptable for the school to force parents to spend money to buy new skirts, sheitels, etc? The school could be turning people away from yiddishkeit and discouraging people from being religious because of it. Was that the goal of the school, to turn people away from religion by forcing them to make a choice between spending money they dont have on a new wardrobe/wig vs getting their kids kicked out of school for not adhering to the rules? Why are the Rabbi's allowing this to happen if they really care about their students and their parents religion?

mommy3b2c

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:44 am

marina wrote:

The problem is that in many NYC communities, schools are a seller's market. People are just so happy that the school accepted their kinderlach and will do them the big favor of providing a basic education. If that. So they are willing to pay whatever price the schools demand and say how high when told to jump.

You are mixing up NYC with Lakewood.
Ny has dozens of schools for all types. Almost everyone gets accepted to their first or second choice. Pick the school that suits you best and you shouldn't have any problems. I, for example, wouldn't last a day in a school that dictates my every move. Therefore, I don't send to such a school. In my sons school, the rule handbook has a few sentences that says something along the lines of, " mothers please be respectful of the fact that our yeshiva is a makom Torah and come dressed appropriately." It then actually gives a couple of examples such as, please wear socks and a shaitel. And that's it. If I wanted a school with a whole handbook, then I would send to a different school.

allthingsblue

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:54 am

wondergirl wrote:

Just being practical here by pointing out that you can just shorten your skirts or wigs, you don't have to get new ones...
(I would never send to a school with such rules for parents, I'm just pointing out that you're going a little overboard.)

CatLady

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:56 am

I work in a hospital that has a dress code, and until they explained the rationale for certain regulations, my co-workers were less likely to comply. Not allowing sandals seemed arbitrary, whereas mentioning that because of occupational hazards, closed-toed shoes in certain settings are required made sense. Office workers obviously have different working conditions than lab techs, or maintenance staff. If the policy is based on a good reason (and "Because I said so" is NOT a good reason!) then the buy-in may be better.

Disclaimer: I wouldn't send my kid to the type of school that had a dress code for parents, no matter how they explained it. It's just not in line with my personal belief system.

amother

Khaki

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:01 am

wondergirl wrote:

Argh. I really didn't want to debate the dress code, which is pretty much in line with the community in any case.

It was really only the men signing off on women's attire that bothered me.

Sorry to have raised this topic (inadvertently) again.

wondergirl

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:20 am

allthingsblue wrote:

I woudnt cut my wigs but even someone chooses to do that or shorten their skirts it would still cost money which not everyone would have. And what if someone has only tight clothing, are they supposed to buy a new wardrobe or will the school cover the cost for it? The point is, why is the school all of a sudden forcing parents to spend money to follow rigid, arbitrary rules outside their (the schools) jurisdiction?

wondergirl

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:30 am

amother wrote:

Perhaps its the schools way of saying that men have to control their wives. Which is ironic considering that the schools motto is "Instilling confidence, competence, and compassion in the woman of tomorrow". Seems like the school is not adhering to their own rules/motto/goals by sending this letter home to the woman of today and their husbands to sign/follow. So yes, I agree with you that the school is overstepping their boundaries by asking men to sign this paper. But why would it be okay for them to send home this letter for the women of today to sign altogether if the schools goal is to educate the women of tomorrow?

princessleah

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 12:00 pm

From all the agonizing over tznius, I would assume that people are flaunting it right and left, and that all of Brooklyn is a hotbed of mini skirts and too-long sheitels.

And yet from what I see, the women of these communities look perfectly modest and respectable. And from what I read on here, it seems that everyone is tznius in ways that are appropriate to their communities. Is it really that bad? Why this constant focus on tznius to the exclusion of other mitzvoth (as Marina pointed out)?

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 12:04 pm

princessleah wrote:

Why do you say exclusion of other mitzvos. I take offense that you say this. Its like you are saying those that care about tznius don't care about anything else.
Everyone I know personally pays taxes, works 100% on the books - even cash received , is nice and kind and considerate and works on hard on improving themselves daily.

Are there bad people in every community - of course - do you mean to tell me that communities that don't have a focus on tzinius everyone follow mitvos to a greater extent?

If people sending to the school already dress like this then why should they care?

water_bear88

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 12:33 pm

amother wrote:

There was a quite recent thread on which one poster claimed tzniut regulations were absolute halacha while learning Torah was not. At least one other poster agreed with her. Clearly, there is a point when pushing tzniut goes too far at the expense of other mitzvot.

debsey

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 1:54 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Of course they are educating people.

1) The students, who lack the necessary background yet, by virtue of being young, are being taught everything, including all the resources and Torah based sources for Tznius, Shmiras HaLashon, Shabbos, Kashrus, and everything else they need to know to be adult Orthodox Jews.

2) The parents, presumably, know this already. (Obviously, there will be individuals who don't have that background, but those individuals are probably in their own framework. All of my BT friends have rebbetzins and families that have adopted them and provide that framework.)

3) If you are joining a BY style school, you either have that background, or know where to obtain it. This letter is clearly targeting those parents who cynically manipulate the system, joining a school that isn't for them, and then changing the demographic of that school. That's unfair and dishonest.

4) If you don't want to be a parent in a BY school, go elsewhere. This letter originated in NY. Parents have plenty of choices there.

wondergirl

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 2:38 pm

debsey wrote:

I am not familiar with this particular school in question but I do know that not every school teaches halachas from the sources but that is not relevant to this conversation. The goal of the school is to educate their students but the letter they sent home to the parents indicates that the school is attempting to control the parents rather than just educate the children.

But you bring out a very good point with the bolded sentence. Parents have their own Rav/Rebetzin/Mentor who can help them decide how to dress tznius so there is no need for the school to dictate what parents do at all. The school principal is not a personal Rav/Rebetzin/mentor to the parents and shouldnt be dictating how the parents dress especially if he never spoke to them directly about it beforehand. The rules of tznius obviously differ for everyone depending on their Rav/Rebetzin/mentor so it is unfair and dishonest for a school principal to force parents to randomly change everything about themselves just because he came up with new rules that he believes adults have to follow without question. And no, you cannot say that the parents are manipulating the system or they knew the rules before they joined the school because the letter is dated May 29, 2017 which is the very end of the school year and not an appropriate time to spring new rules onto parents. This letter is completely wrong and inappropriate and I hope that the parents will be brave enough to stand up to the school administration and put a stop to it before its too late.

amother

Pewter

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:50 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Way to bash Lkwd. No, we don't jump at any school that accepts us or pay any price like marina insinuated.

And I don't know which bubble you're living in but I have several friends in NY and every single one of them had issues with getting their kids into schools...

amother

Pewter

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:54 pm

wondergirl wrote:

And no, you cannot say that the parents are manipulating the system or they knew the rules before they joined the school because the letter is dated May 29, 2017 which is the very end of the school year and not an appropriate time to spring new rules onto parents. This letter is completely wrong and inappropriate and I hope that the parents will be brave enough to stand up to the school administration and put a stop to it before its too late.

And how do you know that parents weren't given a basic rundown of these rules when they first applied and you are only looking at the yearly reinforcement letter they send home each summer?