Lakewood offensive sign?

mommyla

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:02 pm

Everyone is just trying to explain why the non-Jews are harboring hatred and resentment against us. Yes, there are many many people who are honest. There are also many who are not. Plenty of people receive benefits without reporting honestly, and the arrests this summer threw a lot of fuel and "proof" of the "community's" dishonesty.

And from the point of view of outsiders, yes, people with large families are draining the town's resources by relying on government assistance to live - and those same outsiders see thousands of brand-new spacious 5+ bedroom townhouses and McMansions springing up on every plot of land, with many of the government assistance recipients able to live in those homes thanks to Section 8 and HUD and Sandy grants and whatever other programs they're on. Do you really not see how it could breed resentment, whether or not they see the whole picture?

Mommyg8

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:07 pm

mommyla wrote:

I think that people building McMansions breeds resentment - I agree. Even if they are not welfare recipients (which I have a feeling they're not).

And I think that the word "welfare" has certain connotations, I don't think that someone who is getting Jersey Care with an income of $110,000 a year fits that mold. I also don't think that a family where one of the parents is a STUDENT fits that mold either.

I would also respectfully ask that only people who either live in Lakewood, or have some kind of knowledge of how Lakewood works, respond to these posts.

I disagree completely with most of your post, but I will respond later, hopefully.

shyshira

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:10 pm

Cookiegirl wrote:

If the government is giving someone money so they can feed their family, then yes, that family is a welfare recipient...more later...

Agree.

The Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) provides Federal grants to States for supplemental foods, health care referrals, and nutrition education for low-income pregnant, breastfeeding, and non-breastfeeding postpartum women, and to infants and children up to age five who are found to be at nutritional risk.

so this is a program to look after the welfare (statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need) of Americans.

Mommyg8

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:12 pm

shyshira wrote:

The Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) provides Federal grants to States for supplemental foods, health care referrals, and nutrition education for low-income pregnant, breastfeeding, and non-breastfeeding postpartum women, and to infants and children up to age five who are found to be at nutritional risk.

so this is a program to look after the welfare (statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need) of Americans.

That's what it SAYS, but that's not how it's played out in real life. I have had WIC all my life, and I have never felt it was a low income program. And nobody was ever at nutritional risk. It's not Food Stamps (that's something else).

leah233

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:12 pm

sister1 wrote:

I just want to give support to Mommygr8 because you all seem to be bashing her! Many people in lakewood put in many hours of work and are very honest in their dealings. They mantain their properties, contribute to society, and most of all, are supporitng כל העולם כלו with hours upon hours of Torah learning! MANY of them are very careful to only accept govt assitance within the boundaries of halacha, and I can attest that many also ask their roshei yeshiva whether to accept govt assist or not, and then follow through. If we bash each other like this, can you blame others?
Let's be as accepting of all members of klal yisroel as we want others to be and you can think of it as a zchus for someone you know who needs a yeshua!

I'm not bashing anyone but I do feel that people should at least be conscious of how their behavior is perceived and what the at least ostensible resentment is based on.

The well known Gemorah says that Yaakov sent his children on the long and extremely dangerous trip to buy unneeded food in Mitzrayim only so that Asav and Yismoel shouldn't feel jealous that "they" have food and we don't.

Certainly there would have been no legitimate complaints; Yaakov didn't get the food from them or through preferential treatment or even by outbidding them on the open market. Yet nonetheless Yaakov Avinu troubled himself to such great lengths to avoid their bad feelings.

This is not a lesson we can forget in golus . When I see people say things like "They'll hate us anyway""We have the (secular legal) right to do this" (so we don't have to take their feelings into consideration)I feel that it is being ignored.

mommyla

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:18 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. (For the record, I am quite happy living here for over a decade now and very familiar with the good parts of Lakewood living, but it's foolish to pretend that people have no reason to hate us.) There are families where the parent is a student for years on end. And when that student period ends, those students are usually not educated in a field that allows him to earn a respectable salary in a specific field.

(A BTL is not exactly a useful degree. And I say that as the wife of someone who has an excellent job, B"H, even without formal schooling beyond the BTL, but many, many people are not that lucky, and there were several lean years between "schooling" and success.)

It's not just the McMansions. It's the brand-new townhouses too. People outside of the community can work really hard and not receive any government assistance and never be able to dream of owning a 3000-square-foot, brand-new home for $4-500k+, and when they see those very same students who are paying for their groceries with WIC and food stamps and receiving housing benefits in those homes, they would have to be subhuman to not feel resentful.

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:23 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

You can't have been on WIC your entire life. The only people eligible for WIC are pregnant women, women who have just given birth, and children under the age of 5. Also, by definition, they have to be at "nutritional risk." But AFIAK, that just means meets the income limits.

There's nothing wrong with getting WIC. The program exists because, as a society, we have decided that its a good thing. It IS a good thing. But WIC uses government funds to provide nutrition assistance to people whose income falls below a certain level. It is, by definition, a form of welfare.

I understand the cognitive dissonance that you're feeling. You've probably spent your life thinking of people on "welfare" as different from you. Poor. Not trying to help themselves. Slightly distasteful. Maybe you can understand how wrong that is. People on welfare are people like you.

Simple1

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:30 pm

mommyla wrote:

(A BTL is not exactly a useful degree. And I say that as the wife of someone who has an excellent job, B"H, even without formal schooling beyond the BTL, but many, many people are not that lucky, and there were several lean years between "schooling" and success.)

A BTL is actually useful if you want to go on for a Master's. There are men who leave Kollel who do just that. A regular Bachelor's is also not so useful unless you go for further education.

Last edited by Simple1 on Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

mommyla

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:31 pm

Of course WIC is a low-income program. That's why you have to qualify for it. Mommyg8, you keep on saying that $110k+ income is not low-income, but when you have a large family, yes, it is!

I was raised in a family where taking from the government was truly a last resort, for the truly poor. My grandparents, all Holocaust survivors, never, EVER took money to live - they were too proud for that. They never owned homes - they rented all their lives. Maybe that's why it bothers me that consistently being on government programs is a primary way of life here rather than a short-term solution.

DVOM

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 1:53 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

How you feel about being on WIC is irrelevant. If you are accepting government assistance because you are meeting their income guidelines YOU ARE ON WELFARE.

I'm also on welfare. My children receive NJ familycare, and I get WIC.

Quote:

"think that people building McMansions breeds resentment - agree. Even if they are not welfare recipients (which have a feeling they're not).

And think that the word "welfare" has certain connotations, don't think that someone who is getting Jersey Care with an income of $110,000 a year fits that mold. also don't think that a family where one of the parents is a STUDENT fits that mold either.

would also respectfully ask that only people who either live in Lakewood, or have some kind of knowledge of how Lakewood works, respond to these posts.

disagree completely with most of your post, but will respond later, hopefully."

My husband is a student. I work full time. We qualify for WELFARE. When he finishes his doctorate in his chosen field, I hope we won't qualify for or need welfare anymore, but right now, I'm very grateful for the assistance.

Perhaps this will cause you to rethink the 'welfare mold' you're referring to.

mommyla

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:40 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

That's what's been niggling at me. WIC doesn't "feel" like a low-income program... because 3/4 of the town is on it! (Disclaimer: I made up that statistic.) And yes, people have told me that they're ashamed to see others in the WIC office pushing the latest stroller and wearing the latest designer purse. It IS a welfare program, no matter how many people "feel" it isn't. And that's the crux of the government assistance issue - nobody feels like they're taking from the government because "everybody" does it.

WhatFor

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:16 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

There's nothing wrong with getting WIC. The program exists because, as a society, we have decided that its a good thing. It IS a good thing. But WIC uses government funds to provide nutrition assistance to people whose income falls below a certain level. It is, by definition, a form of welfare.

I understand the cognitive dissonance that you're feeling. You've probably spent your life thinking of people on "welfare" as different from you. Poor. Not trying to help themselves. Slightly distasteful. Maybe you can understand how wrong that is. People on welfare are people like you.

I've been seeing this cognitive dissonance in a number of areas; it's sad that rhetoric sometimes wins the day and people perpetuate fallacies about the underprivileged, even against their own interests.

I've seen people who voted for politicians to "get rid of Obamacare" but when asked what insurance they were on they said "the Affordable Care Act."

I've seen people go haywire on "those illegals in this country" and then talk about their own Israeli relatives who overstayed their own visas and are in a jail cell, but they didn't do anything wrong, they're not like the bad illegal people.

And I've seen people who learn in kollel and rely on Section 8 and food stamps to survive go on and on about why the government shouldn't have to give out all that free money to people on welfare.

It's sad and I don't think these people are bad people. They just picked up on hateful rhetoric without really thinking about it. They thought that the politician or whoever was talking about "bad people" and clearly they're not a bad person, so it's not referring to them.

Well when people talk about those welfare recipients, yes, they are referring to the people of Lakewood as well. They're not just talking about people who get it fraudulently, they're talking about people who qualify as well. They believe that one person should not have to subsidize another for their life decisions.

Welfare programs are a socialist concept in which the government plays a role in trying to solve social issues. People who believe that government should play a more limited role in people's lives tend to lean against welfare programs. In the United States, the left tends to be more socialist leaning and the right tends to be more capitalistic leaning. That's why you'll hear more leftist representatives advocate for a single-payer healthcare system, and you'll hear more people on the right advocating for private and less regulated healthcare systems.

I always find it confusing when people on these programs tend to vote against their interests, or at least don't seem to fully understand that they're on these programs.

But then, I suppose there are a lot of things that I deal with daily that I don't fully understand either.

Mommyg8

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 3:24 pm

shyshira wrote:

despite how you feel - its a low income program. Designed to face the reality that low income family face challenges with nutrition.

I have been off WIC for a number of years already, as my youngest is too old, and I don't remember the guidelines. I do know that we were making a decent salary, and we were not eligible for any other programs, such as Section 8, food stamps, or Medicaid. I was not poor, I was middle income, but I agree that I was not rich either. I still think that 110,000 for a family of 8 is not POOR, it's middle income.