Flatbush fire last night

Amarante

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:32 am

Mevater wrote:

I think a brain that doesnt comprehend the danger of sleeping with unattended fire is a hazard, period. V'nishmartem Meod L'nafshoseichem.

Sometimes older kids who dont fully understand the danger, add oil and light again after parents go to sleep, and then the kids endanger everyone by going to sleep with burning flames.

In this specific case, the menorah was two feet so I suspect the cups were large enough so that one filling lasted a long time.

When I studied law, there is always a debate regarding how much should be done to protect and so it's always a balance. There are products that are not permitted to be sold because there is danger. For example, at one time you could put electrical sockets into kitchens and bathrooms that didn't shut off immediately if there was water. This was done because people were being electrocuted by using electric appliances in a wet situation. Now one could make the same argument - I.e. that anyone but a fool knows it is dangerous to mix water and electricity and yet accidents happened for whatever reason so a decision was made to protect both the fools and the prudent by requiring that electric plugs turn off automatically when water was sensed.

I think there are a significant number of people who assume if something is sold, it is safe to use. I would imagine there would not be any way the poor family would have used such a menorah if someone had made them aware of the potential dangers.

SixOfWands

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:37 am

cozyblanket wrote:

I am asking litoeles...

I'm trying to understand this. Were the flames extinguished and it still caused a fire from the hot glass? Is that possible? Or were the flames still burning at 2am?

I am asking bc if it was the former, then wouldn't there still be a safety problem even if we extinguish the flames before going to bed etc? I am applying this to safety in my own home and trying to learn.

One more question, we go upstairs to put the kids to bed and then go back down. So the menorah are alone on the first floor during that time. What do we do about this? It is hard for one parent to do the whole bedtime alone kah.

Thank you for your help.

Their theory is that the menorah was still burning at 2 am. The glass cracked from extended heat exposure, spilling the flaming oil, which spread and caused the fire.

Amarante

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:37 am

cozyblanket wrote:

It appears it was still burning when the glass cracked. It would be the flaming oil that spread the flames.

There would probably be other flammable objects that were immediately ignited by the flaming oil - I.e. rugs, pictures, wood floor, curtains, upholstery fabrics etc. Perhaps the oil spilled onto the walls and therefore the walls were engulfed causing the fire to spread very rapidly.

The cups of flaming oil are equivalent to how an arsonist deliberately sets a fire - I.e. sets fuel (gas, oil, kerosene) on fire. I am NOT comparing to arson at all but pointing out why flaming oil is such a fire hazard.

SixOfWands

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:39 am

Amarante wrote:

OTOH .... the glass may have been damaged, and that caused it to crack under heating conditions that it could normally withstand. Or someone could have added oil to make it burn even longer, creating the dangerous condition.

We don't know.

Amarante

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:44 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Of course that could be true.

My point is that, at least in my opinion, this is an inherently defective object.

Over the course of time, the glasses could have been damaged without the user realizing it.

Couple that with their size creating the probability that the cups would break at a time when the users were not there to immediately take action.

If one is using smaller cups - I.e. ones that last for only an hour or so, there is not a DELIBERATE scenario that the flames will continue for a long period of time - and probably when the household is asleep or doing other things. Of course, an idiot could refill small cups but the likelihood is smaller than the likelihood of one assuming one can safely fill a LARGE cup.

One can't protect people against every danger. However, one can attempt to prevent inherently dangerous objects being sold and used. That's the essence of consumer protection regulations - striking a balance.

Mevater

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:46 am

cozyblanket wrote:

Is it even possible for a fire to start just from overheated oil cups, with no flame?

I dont think so. That would be a magic trick.

gold21

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:46 am

gamanit wrote:

I learnt that you shouldn't blow out candles; you should rather snuff them out or wave your hand to extinguish them. I find snuffing them out is usually the easiest. It takes a second.

We snuffed out our menorah candles after an hour last night. After the tragic fire in Flatbush, I just wasn't okay leaving the menorahs going while my baby was running all over the place, including in the room with the menorahs.... I usually just watch him carefully and it's fine, but last night I was more comfortable asking my husband to please snuff out the flames after an hour.

Laiya

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:48 am

cozyblanket wrote:

I think the fire department advises that the flames should never be left unattended. I agree that it's hard with little kids.

Dh pours out some of the oil and fills with water so that they won't burn longer than we want.

This story is so heartbreaking.

ra_mom

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 10:50 am

Amarante wrote:

The sell snuffers. They were widely used in the days before electrical lighting to safely snuff out candles. They look like small bell shaped cups with a handle.

Wow I forgot about those. I'd be more comfortable with something like that.
Adding this to my cart.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.....psc=1

OOTBubby

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 11:22 am

Amarante wrote:

It creates a situation in which most people will fill the oil and assume it is safe because otherwise why would the cups be large enough for that amount of oil.

The point is having a menorah that has cups large enough to fill with enough oil so that it is burning at 2:30 A.M. is inherently unsafe because the end users will generally NOT be awake to make sure that nothing has happened.

The cause of the fire was the glass cups holding the oil could not withstand the heat over the length they were in use so one or more cracked and the flaming oil spilled out igniting everything quickly.

That to me makes it inherently unsafe. Many products are deliberately NOT sold because using them creates an inherent risk.

We have a large menorah with large (fire-proof) glass cups, but we fill them mostly with water and just enough oil to burn until after the zman. Just because it can hold a lot of oil, most people do not fill them with only oil.

cozyblanket

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 12:10 pm

Mevater wrote:

Is it even possible for a fire to start just from overheated oil cups, with no flame?

I dont think so. That would be a magic trick.

Agreed!
Thus, my question. I didn't want to assume it was still burning at 2am without the fire dept statement saying that indeed was their theory. But, as you all wrote, it would have to be the case.

artz

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 12:19 pm

We dont know exactly what happened they could of come home late from a chanukah party or spending the day with the family and only got to light at 12 so those candles can burn for 2 hours.
I have had in the passed the glasses that are used for shabbos with the neironim candles inside they have a metal piece on the bottom that holds the wick. if that piece was left inside can cause the glass to break because it was just too hot. you have to make sure those pieces come out.

ra_mom

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 12:42 pm

rikki 1 wrote:

What about the fire alarms? The article I read said they had working fire alarms. Why didn't they wake up the occupants of the house earlier?

From the Washington Post
"Fire officials said a smoke alarm was activated on the first floor, alerting the two younger boys to evacuate the home. Officials have not yet identified any other smoke detectors on the other floors."
https://www.washingtonpost.com.....dren/
Crying

MrsEsther

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 1:23 pm

artz wrote:

Yes The parents were at an engagement party the night before.

cbg

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 2:33 pm

Amarante wrote:

I would think a menorah constructed to still be burning at 2:30 A.M. is a fire hazard.

What about the large glasses filled with oil you see in Eretz Yisrael in kevarim of the Tzadikim, why are these safer.
There are a lot of kvitels by the Kever.
Specifically thinking about the Kever of The Rebbe of Tzvil.

Raisin

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 2:51 pm

rikki 1 wrote:

What about the fire alarms? The article I read said they had working fire alarms. Why didn't they wake up the occupants of the house earlier?

It looks like they did but the fire spread too quickly.

Oy.

I got some other really bad news today so my heart is breaking.

It is really upsetting when doing a mitzva leads to tragedy.

I think kids need to be taught that part of chillul/kiddush Hashem is doing a mitzva safely. EG don't use a dangerous body of water for a mikva, light shabbos and chanuka candles safely. When readers of the NYT read this article what are they thinking?

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Dec 19 2017, 3:52 pm

A bit off topic but I can't understand the use of pre-filled chanukka lights in plastic cups!! Seriously, anybody with a bit of seichel understands that plastic is NOT a fire proof material even if the item is being sold in stores.
Don't see the fascination with pre-filled cups. And much more expensive too.