What do you think? noise shabbos backyard neighborhood kids?

amother

Green

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 10:52 am

amother wrote:

The point here is, is that it's not just regular normal noise from a neighbor. It's a collection of normal noise from lots of neighbors together, and that makes the difference. The neighbor can have her kids run around all day long in her backyard, but inviting half the neighborhood over on a weekly basis for your own benefit, on the account of other, is selfish.

No one has mentioned not allowing her children to play outdoors. No one is asking her to refrain normal activities from her children. All the OP is asking is that she invite her kids' friends over at a later hour so she can have her Shabbos pleasure too.

Shabbos is a day of rest and the neighbor equally has a burden to try to maintain that in the her neighborhood.

Menucha v’simcha.

amother

Linen

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 10:54 am

amother wrote:

Playset in backyard is a normative use of space. Boisterous fun outside in the afternoon is normal.

Honestly, if my neighbor told me to keep my guests quiet outside in the summer in the middle of the afternoon, I’d respond by inviting her over to join the conversation.

Playset is normal, boisterous fun is normal, turning your property into a weekly fun park is not normal. At least have the consideration to set hours.

And if someone can explain what is wrong with telling your kids and guests that we set up an arrangement with our neighbors to keep the volume down until a certain time in the early afternoon so that people can rest. Is there something wrong with having your kids and guests have boisterous fun for only 4 hours instead of 5? Is there something terrible with teaching our kids concern and respect for others? Or is their fun of such optimal importance that it needs to utilize every available minute of the day, and not leave one minute unchecked?

DVOM

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 10:57 am

What an interesting conversation. Here is my take:

The noise of children playing doesn't bother me. I guess that by the time I get into bed for a little resting time on Shabbos afternoon, I'm so happy for some time alone that the background noise barely registers.

I do have a similar ongoing situation though. One of my neighbors is doing some DIY construction and frequently breaks out the circular saw and sanders on Shabbos afternoon. Another often rides his lawnmower shabbos afternoon. These noises do sometimes bother me.

I wouldn't dream though of asking my neighbors to be quiet. Thier activities are normal and reasonable. This is their free time; they are entitled to enjoy it.

I would be very annoyed if someone asked me to keep my kids indoors on a nice shabbos afternoon. They spend a lot of hours in school and this is their time to play. Some of the suggestions- that kids be kept indoors until 5- sound so unreasonable.

amother

Linen

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 10:57 am

amother wrote:

Omg Another linen, how can you even compare kids playing outside on their own property at a normal hour, to a couple making out in public, leaving garbage out or loud music during the night?? I'm sorry, but it's not even a comparison.
As for the sunbathing part, I live around many non Jews & I've never seen anyone sunbathing in their front yards....

I wasn't - I was comparing turning your property into a neighborhood park to playing loud music (during the day), etc. All of those factors I mentioned affect quality of life, as does living next to a neighborhood park.

(Oh, and I just love the personal anecdotal situation - if you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't seen sunbathing in front yards, doesn't mean others haven't. )

amother

Linen

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 11:02 am

DVOM wrote:

Some of the suggestions- that kids be kept indoors until 5- sound so unreasonable.

Just to point out that this suggestion is dependent on the different communities. In some communities, the men don't come home for the Seudah until close to one o'clock. By the time the Seudah is finished, it can be close to 3 o'clock. In these situations, the kids generally have already been playing outdoors much of the morning, so keeping the kids in for an hour or two after the Seudah is not asking that much.

If your seudah is completed by 12-1 o'clock, then keeping your kids inside till 5 is definitely unreasonable.

Imo, asking for 1 or 2 hours max of quiet time during the day (whenever it works best for the community) is reasonable. The kids have the other 10 hours to live it up outside.

amother

Coral

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 11:07 am

I moved to a house near a train station. My friend lives in a house near a popular airport. After a few years we both agreed; I don't hear the trains anymore and she doesn't "hear" the planes. If course, the noise is there, but it gets built into your "system" to a point where u won't hear it. If you can't get over it, earplugs work fine. The reason I didn't use airplugs was because I was scared I wouldn't hear my kids in trouble Chas vshalom

Ema of 5

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 11:22 am

All I can say is, I’m so happy I don’t live in a community where it is the norm to not let your kids play outside. We live across the street from a public school and park. My block is always loud. That’s just part of life. Very often our house or yard will turn into the community yard. I actually prefer it hat way, so I can see what’s going on, hear the conversations if I choose to, and see who my kids are hanging out with.
I would lose my sanity if I had to keep my
Kids in until 4 or 5. Especially
In the winter, when after 4 it’s already getting dark.

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 11:49 am

My neighbor has a basketball hoop. But her kids are grown. And several boys from around the neighborhood would come and use it. Bounce bounce bounce. I would go nuts from it.

I finally asked if she could please tell the neighbors not to use it. It's one thing to put up with your own neighbors' noise. It's an entirely different matter when your neighbor's yard becomes a public park.

amother

Green

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 11:52 am

amother wrote:

Right - but if her boys were using it and had friends over - what can you do? (Would also drive me nuts)...

amother

Pumpkin

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 12:01 pm

flowerpower wrote:

We don't lay down shabbos afternoon. So I train my kids to play board games( like we do in the winter after the Friday night meal). And after we go for a long walk or to the park. I know you can't keep kids cooped up for hours when it's nice out. But you can teach them consideration of others for 2-3 hours when you still have a very long afternoon left after that.

I teach them consideration in other ways. I don’t have to keep them inside on a beautiful shabbos afternoon to train them to be considerate of others. There are lots of good ideas here for blocking out noise. Keeping children inside doesn’t sound fair to me, and to act like there are chinuch benefits - nice try. It’s all about keeping the crotchety neighbor happy. So unfair all of you who think your naps are more important than the children having an enjoyable shabbos afternoon. How about you teach your children consideration by showing them the ear plugs and sound machine you got, so that you can sleep without disturbing the children’s fun? (I feed my kids at 5:30, they go to sleep at 6:30, so we start winding down at 5:00. When do you want them to play? And its bad enough they’re cooped up all winter, now you want them cooped up all year round?

amother

Linen

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 12:14 pm

amother wrote:

The hyperbole is just great! No one is asking you to keep your kids cooped up all day long. And the neighbor is not crotchety for asking something that many people expect to do on shabbos, which is taking a nap.

How about stepping into your neighbor's shoe for a minute. He or she could be working very hard all week long and look forward to a nice Shabbos nap on the one day they have off. Is it so much to ask of a neighbor to work out ONE hour of the day where he or she can have a nap? Or is your children's having fun the entire day so much more important that you actually think that showing them that adults should bow to the needs of children a form of chinuch?

How about - it is unfair all of you to think that your children have outdoor fun the ENTIRE shabbos day be more important than 1 hour nap of your hardworking neighbor? (key words being ENTIRE day and 1 HOUR).

And chinuch, imo, is asking children to show respect & deference to their elders and not asking elders to show respect and deference to the children.

What is wrong with you and your neighbor getting together and discussing when the 1 hour would work for BOTH of you, so your kids get to have the 10 hours of outdoor play and she or her can squeeze in a 1 hour nap?

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 12:27 pm

amother wrote:

All you need to do is keep them inside from 2:30 until 5.
Add or subtract a few min to make it work for you.

It isn’t so hard.

And the worst is when the neighbors kids parents are sleeping blissfully in their FRONT bedroom while their kids make a ruckus in the backyard.

amother

Puce

Sun, Apr 29 2018, 12:43 pm

amother wrote:

That really IS hard for many people. My kids are high-energy and we have a big beautiful fenced-in backyard (and a very tiny playroom inside) for them to play in. They make noise at a normal level and they each have a couple of friends over on the typical Shabbos afternoon.

Here's how our Shabbos goes: we eat early and are usually finished with our seuda by 12/12:30, later if we have guests. We'll take a walk sometimes. Then DH and I will trade off napping. 2:30-5 is prime outside time as we usually give the kids dinner by 6ish, and often they'll eat outside too. We practically live outdoors in the summer. So for a full 2.5 hours - virtually their entire outdoor playtime - we are supposed to corral the kids inside so that the neighbors can take a nap? Not gonna happen. Sorry.

(FTR, all of the neighbors have big beautiful backyards, and nobody would expect the neighbors to keep their kids inside for the entire afternoon every Shabbos. At least I hope nobody thinks that. The kids tend to "travel" from yard to yard over the course of the day.)

(And another FTR, I lived in a basement apartment for many years, underneath a family with very boisterous kids who would make a racket both inside - on top of our heads - and outside our windows on Shabbos. I never would have dreamed to ask the neighbors to keep them quiet in the afternoons. We used white noise machines and often had our naps interrupted. That's life.)