My husband shook hands with a woman

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amother

Lavender

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:00 am

There are actually many poskim that say it is allowed if the woman stretches her arm out and would be embarrassed. But that being said- he was taken off guard!!!! Many people don't think straight when taken off guard. And especially if he isn't used to dealing with women and/ or business dealings he was extra nervous. Just help him game plan what To do in the future. Many people tell the person on the phone before hand I don't shake hands with opposite gender for religious reasons, or have their partner prep the person, or have something prepared to say before the woman puts her arm out. It also helps to have something in both hands, so the person is less likely to extend their hand- like a briefcase and water bottle. My husband does that a lot. He has stuff in his hands on purpose.

Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:01 am

amother wrote:

shaking hands in business is a "gray area" in halacha especially if the woman put her hand out first. Your dh got frazzled. My suggestion is he speak to a rabbi who is familiar with working in the secular world where that is considered completely normal and ask what he should do in the future. You are really being way to hard on him. Please don't let your low self esteem affect your marriage.

It may be a gray area for you, but it's not a gray area for me or the OP. We hold it's totally assur.

That said, I do think you should cut your DH some slack. It's really hard to think on the spot, and not shaking would have put him in a very awkward position. He just didn't know what to do. I really don't blame him, and you really shouldn't either.

amother

Mistyrose

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:06 am

I grew up with my father shaking hands with women all the time. He had a heter for business. My mother had the same heter, but she never did it. My husband and I are the opposite. I feel weird and I would shake, my husband would never. You are over-reacting. This is not a big deal. Calm down.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:15 am

I did this once!!!
And I am the furthest thing from a klutz.
I'm a Chassidish woman who was caught off guard and shook hands with a man.
I was so upset at myself afterwards, the last thing I'd need is my husband berating me.
He helped me calm down and look at it as a lesson to learn for what to do in the future.

amother

Amethyst

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:16 am

Mommyg8 - I would really like to know the source that says it is totally assur to shake hands in business situations. My dh and I have always done so as we find the explaining that we "don't do that" to be awkward, embarrassing to both parties and not necessary as it is not derech chiba.

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:19 am

Your husband did the right thing.
Derech eretz kodmah latorah.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:24 am

amother wrote:

Yes this. Im also chasidish and was going to post the exact same thing

groisamomma

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:27 am

amother wrote:

Your husband did the right thing.
Derech eretz kodmah latorah.

This is your personal made-up opinion of why it's permissible, amother. This post makes it sound like it's not only muttar, but l'chatchila more preferable, which it is NOT. Shaking hands for business purposes and not derech chiba is the real reason and it's only a b'dieved. I've asked shaylos about this and making black-and-white statements about gray areas is wrong. Please stop projecting your views of what is more important than Torah onto other people.

OP, there is room for leniency with regards to halacha in such cases so your dh should ask a shayla for the future.

Last edited by groisamomma on Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

cornflower

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:28 am

amother wrote:

My dh is a chassidish frum man. He never looks directly at women, but he shook hands with a (non jewish) woman at a meeting because he was lost/wasn't sure if it usser or not Hypnotized

I view him as a klutz right now! The handshake per se doesn't bother me as much as the fact that it's common knowledge that men dont do handshakes with women. Why was he 'unsure' or lost?!

Even more bothersome is - why do I respect him less now?! Why do I view him as a klutzy klutz after this incident?? Am I overreacting?

Hi. I'm chassidish. I shake hands with men in meetings. DH shakes hands with women. Don't view yourself as a klutz. Kids don't have to know and he should not have told you if this was going to be your reaction.

asmileaday

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:29 am

Op you're overreacting. I think you need to apologize to your husband.
You say he is upgeheeten. These things happen. It didn't come from a bad place. And he told you. You need to support him.
When dh knows he'll be in these situations he makes sure to hold a cup of coffee or a file folder. But caught off guard? I think anyone would make that mistake.

Rappel

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:31 am

amother wrote:

I myself was once in a very awkward situation where a sub OB who doesn't have experience with religious Jews delivered my baby. After touching every private part of me to deliver and then sewing up my vajayjay he took my hands in his to congratulate me. I could not bring myself to say at that point- sorry we don't touch unrelated males.
Think of me as a klutz or whatever - I'm not!!!

And that, my friends, is the proverbial mic drop. Rolling Laughter

crust

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:34 am

amother wrote:

Your husband did the right thing.
Derech eretz kodmah latorah.

Oy the amaratzes

groisamomma

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:37 am

crust wrote:

Oy the amaratzes

You sound like my dh Very Happy

naturalmom5

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:45 am

There's a prohibition against touching any member of the opposite gender other than your spouse or close relatives. Many opinions say that's only "affectionate" touching, "such as hugging and kissing." Others say no, it includes all touching. (Rabbi Yehuda Herzl Henkin, in Hakira Journal, discusses these opinions and their sources; he strongly believes that the former is the majority opinion.) So we have three questions:

A.) Is the prohibition all touching, or only "affectionate" touching?
B.) What is the Halachic definition of "affectionate"? (See above article for more on this)
C.) How to interpret a business handshake?

Depending on how you answer A, B, and C, the modern-day opinions will literally range from "it's absolutely fine, even in a social setting" (as had been the practice among Orthodox Jews of German ancestry not that long ago) to "not even if your life is at stake!" (R' Chaim Kanievsky). There's also the distinction between you offering your hand first, and responding to someone else's outstretched hand. (If the other person isn't looking for a handshake, do you need to go there?) R' Moshe Feinstein noted that many people do it, though he wasn't crazy about the idea.* It's said that the Bostoner Rebbe would shake a woman's hand if she offered it; Rabbi Dovid Cohen of Brooklyn quotes his mentor, Rabbi Yitzchak Hutner, that a handshake isn't about affection, it's about basic human respect ("derech eretz, not derech chiba"). On the other hand (pun intended), many Orthodox Jews have long worked with the assumption that it's prohibited (which also avoids slippery-slope problems), so be prepared to meet people with that practice.

Note: Rabbi Hershel Schachter (in his Issues in Nursing mp3) cites several students of Rabbi Feinstein who said he was more lenient on the subject when asked in person.

For those who don't shake hands, it often helps to explain that the practice is 100% gender-symmetric and is not about Judaism disparaging women. Another way to say it is "I'm sorry but as a religious policy, I don't touch any woman/man other than my spouse." (This may get the response "gee I wish my spouse had the same policy ...")

crust

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:48 am

amother wrote:

Hi. I'm chassidish. I shake hands with men in meetings. DH shakes hands with women.

How comfortable.

amother

Forestgreen

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:55 am

amother wrote:

Same happened to me! I didn’t tell anyone about it. Not even dh. I just remembered the story after reading this.

Next time your hubby may be better prepared.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:56 am

Ok, I went to an OOT B.Y. (Baltimore) in the 80s and 90s, and the principal told us in 6th grade (prior to a government office school trip) that if an elected official would put out his hand for one of us to shake, we should do so, rather than embarrass him. Things may have changed since then in the school but I know back then at least they always went by any guidelines given by Rabbi Yaakov Kaminetzky....
....and that is still what I do.

amother

Slateblue

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:58 am

amother wrote:

I highly doubt that R' Yaakov Kaminetsky paskened like that. Just because the school looked to him for halachic guidance doesn't mean that this came from him.

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 11:59 am

amother wrote:

My dh is a chassidish frum man. He never looks directly at women, but he shook hands with a (non jewish) woman at a meeting because he was lost/wasn't sure if it usser or not Hypnotized

Op, as other have said, I really really think you are overreacting. This is an extremely uncomfortable situation to be put on the spot in, especially if he’s not used to interacting with women. And as already noted, the Halacha is far from clear cut in this matter.

I would just note the irony that you seemed to be more upset by the fact that she wasn’t Jewish. Ironically from a pure Halachic perspective it would’ve been worse if she was Jewish!! (Possibly Nidda, Eishes Eish)

amother

Cerulean

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:01 pm

Can't read the whole thread now.
Please get over it. It happens. There are heterim even if our husbands. might not make use of them. (I'm yeshivish.)
My kids saw the following. We went to deliver mm to a lovely old survivor couple we knew, a'h and before I could see it coming, the husband kissed me on the cheek.

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