Shaking hands with men at an interview

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:42 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Everyone can surmise what the reasons are based on the fact that it's MEN you won't shake hands with. If it didn't have anything to do with leading to anything, then we wouldn't shake hands with women either.

When I don't shake hands with a man, it's not because I think that if I shake hands with him it's going to lead me to anything more with that particular man.

It's just because it creates for us, as frum Jews, a general climate of distance between the genders. In the long run, it is to protect us from sin, but it's not what I'm thinking about when I don't shake hands with men.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:44 pm

amother wrote:

I thought women can't get an aliyah because it would embarrass men?

I just heard from one of the new orthodox 'equal' congregations that they מוחל על כבודם, it doesn't bother the male members, and that's why they allow women aliyot.

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:47 pm

amother wrote:

I just heard from one of the new orthodox 'equal' congregations that they מוחל על כבודם, it doesn't bother the male members, and that's why they allow women aliyot.

yes.. I'm very familiar.

urban gypsy

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:49 pm

Chayalle wrote:

The religious reasons don't say, "You may shake hands with men that you are definitely not physically attracted to and won't do inappropriate things with," so your individual thoughts in specific situations are not really relevant to the rules. You admit that you don't shake hands because the religious reasons are to protect you from sin (ie "leading to something")

naturalmom5

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:50 pm

amother wrote:

Reb Moshe didn't allow shaking hands. So I don't get your point.

Chayalle, ask R Lieb if you should embarrass someone....

Reb Moshe clearly writes in a tshuva that today it is considered a social greeting and bdieved preferable to embarrassing someone.

I will try and look up the tshuva.

https://www.torahmusings.com/2.....ands/

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:51 pm

Chayalle wrote:

And if I woman, am in a business situation - I'm not looking to create a distance from my male client. So if even if I don't shake his hand - I need to find other ways for him to trust me - so thats kind of a flimsy rational (noting that there are women who just wont work with me period... so this doesn't come up).

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:54 pm

amother wrote:

You are (hopefully) looking to create a personal distance, even while you create a professional relationship.

For many of us, this is accomplished by not shaking hands. It makes it clear that there will be no personal interaction, even while we keep the conversation pleasant, friendly and professional.

amother

Forestgreen

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 2:58 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

You're twisting his words around. He says that he gives the benefit of the doubt to those who return a handshake, stating that they apparently hold that doing so is not derech chiba, but concludes that such a leniency is difficult to rely upon.

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:00 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

You think he didn't consider the possibility when he told me to avoid shaking hands?

urban gypsy

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:00 pm

amother wrote:

I don't see that quote, where are you reading that from?

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:04 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Far be it for me to say I totally know and understand the religious reasons behind our commandments.

I keep them regardless of my personal thoughts on them, to the best of my ability.

As my seminary Rebbetzin used to say - when we learn, for example, sefer hachinuch and it says the Taamei Hamitzvah - that doesn't mean that that is THE reason for the mitzvah - but just something that lends Taam - taste to the mitzvah. The actual reasons may be too deep for human understanding.

So I don't need to understand why I don't shake hands. My Rav holds that it is assur, so I don't do it. If a non-Jew would ask me why, I would simply explain that my religion forbids it.

I'm not thinking that it leads me anywhere, and I hope he doesn't think that either.

amother

Forestgreen

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:05 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I don't see that quote, where are you reading that from?

I haven't yet checked the Hebrew source though found it in the English translation/explanation in several places.

Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igrot Moshe EH 1:56 writes that some rabbis who permit shaking a woman's hand if she extends hers he would understand that it was based on the concept of that it wasn't derech chiba. However, he writes that he thinks that it is a weak argument to rely on.

amother

Crimson

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:07 pm

I do think there will be situations - especially in a job interview - that it will be viewed negatively since many potential applicants are being judged to a great extent in terms of how they will interact with others in the company as well as those outside the organization as applicable.

It may be less important for some jobs or some organizations but I think it is naive to think that it would have no potential impact. While people might "respect" the person, they might not want to bring in someone they feel as being so "rigid" in certain workplaces.

I offer no opinion as to the Halacha but I do know frum business people who shake hands because they realize that to not do so is potentially alienating to others - not that it would embarrass the other person but that it would be off putting. The modern business world is one in which the ideal is that people are not "sorted" out in terms of gender so for most non-frum people, the very idea that a man and woman can't shake hands for three seconds because of gender prohibitions is - dare I say it - extreme and ridiculous.

That's just reality even if no one expresses it to you at the moment and therefore in a world in which you don't want to be at a disadvantage, it could very well be problematic.

urban gypsy

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:09 pm

Chayalle wrote:

The poster who responded to you above and I were trying to show you that yes, the non-Jew (or Jew) who is trying to shake hands with you does think that you're not shaking due to s-xual reasons and you responded that you were not thinking that. Above, you wrote, "We don't shake hands with men for religious reasons. Nothing to do with it leading to anything."
We are trying to show you that the religious reasons are EXACTLY to do with it leading to something, irrespective of your personal thoughts and the man's personal thoughts, and the man knows it.

amother

Crimson

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:11 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Are you claiming that secular people view a simple handshake as a sexualized encounter?

Because they don't anymore than most secular people view an air kiss as having any kind of s-xual provocativeness.

urban gypsy

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:13 pm

amother wrote:

No. I am telling you that a secular person KNOWS that the reason that we are not shaking hands is because WE view it as a sexualized encounter, and it's annoying and disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:14 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

OK. If that's the case, why is that a problem?

Chayalle

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:16 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I don't see it that way.

Not shaking hands may be a Geder so that in general, it does not lead to such encounters, but that doesn't mean that in every individual situation where I don't shake hands with men, I am thinking that or viewing it that way.