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Shaking hands with men at an interview
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amother




Vermilion


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 3:57 pm
amother wrote:
Please stop twisting people's words and psakim around.

She said that in the same way that people would lose their job for Shabbos, someone who holds that shaking hands is assur, might lose their job as well for it.

Nothing to do with equating the enormity of the two.

And anyway I don't understand this business of picking and choosing according to what one feels is important.
היה זהיר במצווה קלה כבחמורה שאין אתה יודע מתן שכרם של מצוות


There are different Haskafot represented here. Its not a matter of picking and choosing - it is allowing for grey.
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flowerpower




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 4:01 pm
When I worked at a certain place the male visitors always wanted to shake hands. I nicely explained that we don’t shake hands with the opposite gender. Never had an issue with that. They all accepted it graciously.
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amother




Forestgreen


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 4:05 pm
amother wrote:
There are different Haskafot represented here. Its not a matter of picking and choosing - it is allowing for grey.


I understand that - that's why I made it clear that I'm not referring specifically to the question of shaking hands, but to the cavalier attitude being expressed that if something isn't of one of the big three or similar then one doesn't feel the need to sacrifice anything for it.
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amother




Vermilion


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 4:19 pm
amother wrote:
I understand that - that's why I made it clear that I'm not referring specifically to the question of shaking hands, but to the cavalier attitude being expressed that if something isn't of one of the big three or similar then one doesn't feel the need to sacrifice anything for it.


What I responded to was

Quote:
And anyway don't understand this business of picking and choosing according to what one feels is important


because thats not what is happening.

Not sure I understand your sacrifice comment. So if I was offered to have my significant debts wiped clean - all that was required of me was to look the banker in the eye, shake his hand and say "thank-you" - I should run from that deal just as as fast as being offered same debt write off - but what was required of me is to have relations with the banker. Same-Same?
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saw50st8




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 5:20 pm
ShishKabob wrote:
I still will not bend on this principle just because there's a chance that a male will feel a second of embarrassment.


That's totally fine. But don't dismiss the other person's embarrassment just because they are gracious enough not to tell you that you embarrassed them.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 5:30 pm
amother wrote:
because thats not what is happening.

Not sure I understand your sacrifice comment. So if I was offered to have my significant debts wiped clean - all that was required of me was to look the banker in the eye, shake his hand and say "thank-you" - I should run from that deal just as as fast as being offered same debt write off - but what was required of me is to have relations with the banker. Same-Same?


According to the Chazon Ish, yes RUN AWAY...... Its abizuroi d Gilui Arayos

According to the Majority of POskim, (probably the ones you hold by in every other area of Halacha ...) NO
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amother




Cobalt


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 6:55 pm
Pls be nice and don't attack me . I was holding off posting my husbands story but I feel like some people here can benefit from it so here goes...
My husband had a grad school interview and asked his rav before hand what he thinks of shaking hands . His rav said best not to and you never lose out from going the extra mile when it comes to halacha. So my husband didn't shake hands and he was given attitude and asked questions how Intends to proceed in the field he wanted to go into without shaking hands . He got rejected . That was his only interview. He reapplied the next cycle and got into a cheaper, closer (no relocating) and higher ranking school .
Translate it however you like but I'm an optimist and a believer and I choose to believe that my husband was repaid for not folding in the face of nisayon...
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naturalmom5




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 7:21 pm
amother wrote:
Pls be nice and don't attack me . I was holding off posting my husbands story but I feel like some people here can benefit from it so here goes...
My husband had a grad school interview and asked his rav before hand what he thinks of shaking hands . His rav said best not to and you never lose out from going the extra mile when it comes to halacha. So my husband didn't shake hands and he was given attitude and asked questions how Intends to proceed in the field he wanted to go into without shaking hands . He got rejected . That was his only interview. He reapplied the next cycle and got into a cheaper, closer (no relocating) and higher ranking school .
Translate it however you like but I'm an optimist and a believer and I choose to believe that my husband was repaid for not folding in the face of nisayon...


Or maybe it was H Shomer Pshoyim...

The main thing is he followed his Rov. You don't need our approval..
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amother




Cobalt


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 7:25 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Or maybe it was H Shomer Pshoyim...

The main thing is he followed his Rov. You don't need our approval..


Translate?
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amother




Aqua


Post  Wed, Jan 09 2019, 9:51 pm
marina wrote:
I just fornicate instead of shaking hands. Much less confusion and everyone appreciates my friendliness

Marina, you can't just change your avatar!! When I read something like what you posted above and snort from laughter, I need Dumbledore to laugh with! He's your signature... I didn't realize it was you till I went back to double check!
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 9:41 am
amother wrote:
Pls be nice and don't attack me . I was holding off posting my husbands story but I feel like some people here can benefit from it so here goes...
My husband had a grad school interview and asked his rav before hand what he thinks of shaking hands . His rav said best not to and you never lose out from going the extra mile when it comes to halacha. So my husband didn't shake hands and he was given attitude and asked questions how Intends to proceed in the field he wanted to go into without shaking hands . He got rejected . That was his only interview. He reapplied the next cycle and got into a cheaper, closer (no relocating) and higher ranking school .
Translate it however you like but I'm an optimist and a believer and I choose to believe that my husband was repaid for not folding in the face of nisayon...


That is my Hashkafa as well. On some level, I feel that I would not want to work in an environment where I have to compromise on my principals. So if a job or situation comes along where I'd have to do that, it's probably not the best job for me anyway.

Like my sis - she got into a different medical school, and it was great for her.

Many years ago, when my father (he should be gezunt to 120) graduated from Columbia, he found he had a hard time getting a job, and felt that the yarmulka on his head was hindering him. Such was the NYC climate at the time. He asked R' Yaakov Kaminetsky what to do, and was advised that he could wear a toupee.

He got a job shortly thereafter....but the job he worked at made him miserable in every way for being a religious Jew, even with the toupee. He was passed over for promotions, he was talked down to, and given the worst workload with no recognition. He worked there for a while, and then applied to other jobs - this time with a Yarmulka on his head. He found another job where they hired him even with his head covering, and the environment and attitude to him were much better. He worked in that place for many years.
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 9:47 am
amother wrote:
Please stop twisting people's words and psakim around.

She said that in the same way that people would lose their job for Shabbos, someone who holds that shaking hands is assur, might lose their job as well for it.

Nothing to do with equating the enormity of the two.

And anyway I don't understand this business of picking and choosing according to what one feels is important.
היה זהיר במצווה קלה כבחמורה שאין אתה יודע מתן שכרם של מצוות


that is exactly what I meant.

In terms of other men feeling I am discriminating against them by not shaking their hands....I honestly feel that in the reverse, I would be violating myself. IOW, just because a man feels he has a right to shake my hand, because he considers it a polite exchange, does not mean I have to give my hand to him.

I use the ladies room, is that discriminatory? I don't hug or kiss either (I've had coworkers who would have liked to do that, but that doesn't mean I have to.) My body is mine and belongs to me, hands included.
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tigerwife




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:19 am
Please don’t forget one big point-
There is a heter from I think R’ Moshe (please correct me if I’m wrong) that shaking hands does not fall into derech chiba and is allowed in some circumstances.

Please do not judge those who use this heter.

It’s not like all these frum people shaking hands are simply ambivalent about Halacha. No, I wouldn’t eat non-kosher food even if I knew the person offering it to me would be offended. But if I am in a situation where I am offered a handshake and refusing may result in significant loss (for example, with a top doctor or in a sensitive corporate setting), although I hate being forced into this, at least I do not feel guilty for being over on Halacha.

That being said, I really hope to be able to avoid it at all costs. I would rather state my beliefs before than pretend I have a cold, because there’s always a next time and that cold will be mighty suspicious after a few months.
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saw50st8




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:22 am
Chayalle wrote:
That is my Hashkafa as well. On some level, I feel that I would not want to work in an environment where I have to compromise on my principals. So if a job or situation comes along where I'd have to do that, it's probably not the best job for me anyway.

Like my sis - she got into a different medical school, and it was great for her.

Many years ago, when my father (he should be gezunt to 120) graduated from Columbia, he found he had a hard time getting a job, and felt that the yarmulka on his head was hindering him. Such was the NYC climate at the time. He asked R' Yaakov Kaminetsky what to do, and was advised that he could wear a toupee.

He got a job shortly thereafter....but the job he worked at made him miserable in every way for being a religious Jew, even with the toupee. He was passed over for promotions, he was talked down to, and given the worst workload with no recognition. He worked there for a while, and then applied to other jobs - this time with a Yarmulka on his head. He found another job where they hired him even with his head covering, and the environment and attitude to him were much better. He worked in that place for many years.


That's a nice story but I'll counter with this one.

A man I knew interviewed with a big company and didn't wear a yarmulke because it was the early 70s and thought it would hinder his job prospects. He got the job but put his yarmulke on from day 1. That day his new boss said to him "You didn't wear that to the interview huh? I wouldn't have hired you if I had seen it." He then proceeded to impress his boss with his work ethic, diligence and technical ability, and paved a better path for all frum Jews who worked in the company. He also made it to vice president before he retired and was highly respected throughout his career.

We don't actually know what changes or lives for the better. This obviously was bashert for his life journey. Even our bad experiences can be good ones.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:39 am
Chayalle wrote:
that is exactly what I meant.

In terms of other men feeling I am discriminating against them by not shaking their hands....I honestly feel that in the reverse, I would be violating myself. IOW, just because a man feels he has a right to shake my hand, because he considers it a polite exchange, does not mean I have to give my hand to him.

I use the ladies room, is that discriminatory? I don't hug or kiss either (I've had coworkers who would have liked to do that, but that doesn't mean I have to.) My body is mine and belongs to me, hands included.


I don't agree with your analogy here. Using a ladies room has no relation to anyone else, and hugging and kissing is considered to be entering someone else's space and forging personal connections. And a handshake is considered to be a professional act, or sealing a business deal. While this may not hold true everywhere, it is the general view in the United States.

Not hugging or kissing is understood by most, but refusing handshake is not understood by many, especially those that aren't in frequent contact with Orthodox Jews. Very often, it leaves the person embarrassed, offended or bad impression.

I'm not saying you should go against your beliefs, halacha, comfort areas, or your Rav's psak. I'm just saying trying to rationalize it by using faulty analogies or pretending the negative impacts of it doesn't exist, weakens the impact of your stance.
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amother




Vermilion


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:42 am
amother wrote:
I don't agree with your analogy here. Using a ladies room has no relation to anyone else, and hugging and kissing is considered to be entering someone else's space and forging personal connections. And a handshake is considered to be a professional act, or sealing a business deal. While this may not hold true everywhere, it is the general view in the United States.

Not hugging or kissing is understood by most, but refusing handshake is not understood by many, especially those that aren't in frequent contact with Orthodox Jews. Very often, it leaves the person embarrassed, offended or bad impression.

I'm not saying you should go against your beliefs, halacha, comfort areas, or your Rav's psak. I'm just saying trying to rationalize it by using faulty analogies or pretending the negative impacts of it doesn't exist, weakens the impact of your stance.


I think people should go beyond 'comfort areas' to meet basic social protocol. What they shouldn't do is violate Halacha. Very, very different.
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:45 am
tigerwife wrote:
Please don’t forget one big point-
There is a heter from I think R’ Moshe (please correct me if I’m wrong) that shaking hands does not fall into derech chiba and is allowed in some circumstances.

Please do not judge those who use this heter.

It’s not like all these frum people shaking hands are simply ambivalent about Halacha. No, I wouldn’t eat non-kosher food even if I knew the person offering it to me would be offended. But if I am in a situation where I am offered a handshake and refusing may result in significant loss (for example, with a top doctor or in a sensitive corporate setting), although I hate being forced into this, at least I do not feel guilty for being over on Halacha.

That being said, I really hope to be able to avoid it at all costs. I would rather state my beliefs before than pretend I have a cold, because there’s always a next time and that cold will be mighty suspicious after a few months.


Personally, I don't judge those who use this heter.

At the same time, I feel that there are many who would avoid handshaking with the proper support and preparation, and that is why I post my own feelings and experiences on these types of threads.

A few years ago, when I first joined imamother, there was a thread about handshaking with men, and I posted my views. I was bashed and called immature, and other names as well (I still don't understand why sticking to my principals, and choosing not to use a heter that my own Rav paskens against, is immature. I guess there are some people who think that anyone who doesn't do things their way is immature....oh well.) I feel that not being judgemental should go both ways - don't judge those who use a heter, don't bash those who don't.

I feel like we've made alot of progress in this respect. Even with those of us who feel passionate about this subject, I feel the tone in this thread has been largely respectful, with back and forth dialogue. It feels very positive to be part of this, even where we disagree.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:48 am
amother wrote:
I think people should go beyond 'comfort areas' to meet basic social protocol. What they shouldn't do is violate Halacha. Very, very different.


I agree with you, but not everyone else believes that, so I was just covering all the bases in my previous post. My point was that everyone is entitled to choose to do as they wish to (even if their comfort area is prioritized over social protocol), but once you start rationalizing it and follow it with all kind of inappropriate analogies, it just weakens a person's stance or perspective.
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amother




Vermilion


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:49 am
Chayalle wrote:
Personally, I don't judge those who use this heter.

At the same time, I feel that there are many who would avoid handshaking with the proper support and preparation, and that is why I post my own feelings and experiences on these types of threads.

A few years ago, when I first joined imamother, there was a thread about handshaking with men, and I posted my views. I was bashed and called immature, and other names as well (I still don't understand why sticking to my principals, and choosing not to use a heter that my own Rav paskens against, is immature. I guess there are some people who think that anyone who doesn't do things their way is immature....oh well.) I feel that not being judgemental should go both ways - don't judge those who use a heter, don't bash those who don't.

I feel like we've made alot of progress in this respect. Even with those of us who feel passionate about this subject, I feel the tone in this thread has been largely respectful, with back and forth dialogue. It feels very positive to be part of this, even where we disagree.


Those posters are still around.... they just didn't comment here Smile
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ShishKabob




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 10 2019, 10:49 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
And Reb Moshe and numerous other Gedolim held that the slightest chance of embarrassing someone is a very serious Doreissa and possibly creating a Chillul Hashem..

Whereas a handshake, regardless of circumstances, unless done specifically for zxual pleasure is ALWAYS DRABONIM...

Shish K, you might want to run the quoted line of yours by your Rov/poisek

I have run it by my Rabbi. Where I come from it's not acceptable to shake hands with the opposite gender. I am aware that there are other halachic authorities that permit this.
For me, it's not negotiable.

As far as the embarrassing thing goes, if something is not permitted according to the jewish law the embarrassing argument does not cancel it.

If an old lady or a man asks you on Shabbos to carry their bag on the street because they need help, will you carry it even if there's no Eruv? because they will be embarrassed? or you will be embarrassed?
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