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Virgina governor says babies can be killed after delivery
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amother




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Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:38 pm
gamanit wrote:
another point I left out is many families that are fostering children do not want to adopt them because as soon as they sign adoption papers the government stops paying them for taking care of this child. As long as they are fostering and not adopting they continue to get a monthly stipend. Very often children in care are in loving homes without being formally adopted.


A child in a permanent foster care situation would not be waiting for adoption.
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amother




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Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:43 pm
smileforamile wrote:
So because you couldn't handle it, the baby should be murdered?!?! They still have the right to live. And you can never predict where those children will end up. Even if they do end up with a developmental disability, should they not live?!

My sister's good friend's father was born with a congenital heart defect and was predicted not to live past infancy. The doctors later told him he wouldn't live past 20, and then that he would never have children. Well, he lived until 49 and had 2 children. Just because the doctors say something, doesn't mean it's true.


What you are saying, of course, is that there should be no right to abortion in any circumstances.

Just because a 12 year old was raped at gunpoint, why should the baby be murdered?

So clearly you would also have a problem with late term abortion.

And, without belittling your point of view, there's not much use in discussing it with you, as our world views are diametrically opposed.
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gamanit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 2:46 pm
amother wrote:
A child in a permanent foster care situation would not be waiting for adoption.


How is a child ever not for adoption in foster care system aside for when parents are still fighting to get custody back? I've heard of cases where foster care parents were crying when someone else adopted their child. I've never heard of an option where child is permanently placed by someone without adoption remaining as an option.
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 3:31 pm
gamanit wrote:
How is a child ever not for adoption in foster care system aside for when parents are still fighting to get custody back? I've heard of cases where foster care parents were crying when someone else adopted their child. I've never heard of an option where child is permanently placed by someone without adoption remaining as an option.


I can't speak to all cases, but it exists in some states:

https://www.oregonlaws.org/glo.....oster_care
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gamanit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 3:32 pm
amother wrote:
I can't speak to all cases, but it exists in some states:

https://www.oregonlaws.org/glo.....oster_care


https://www1.nyc.gov/site/acs/.....tions.page

Interesting. Doesn't seem to exist in NY. Although it does seem like NY started giving subsidies to adoptive parents as well.
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:08 pm
amother wrote:
NY law does not permit "elective" abortions after 24 weeks. Abortions are limited to situations where the health of the mother is threatened (according to the practitioner’s reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient’s case) or the fetus is not viable.

Since we were discussing NY law, it seemed obvious to me that you were conflating this standard to late term abortion on demand.

But here's the thing. In the US, abortion is regulated on both the state and federal levels. So while the FEDERAL government doesn't ban late term abortion on demand, there are state laws. As far as I can tell, 43 states limits the right to abortion either after "viability" or after a specific gestational age.


I wasn't talking about NY laws.

But if you want to discuss NY's new laws,answer this: What measures are put in place to make sure that the abortion is medically necessary? You came up with several good ideas upthread; such as consulting with a ethics committee, making a mandatory wait time, and having the mother get a psychological eval. These are all good ideas that deserve consideration.

Do you know who is against every one of your ideas?
Pro choice advocates and Planned Parenthood.
They would call you "anti-women's choice" if you dared propose such laws to ensure that only truly necessary abortions were performed.
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amother




Green


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:14 pm
Delete

Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:24 pm
smileforamile wrote:
Well, you just belittled my point of view without even finding out what it is!

Did I say that in cases of rape or incest they shouldn't allow abortion? But why does it need to wait until 24 weeks? Why can't that be done right away, if it's causing such emotional distress?

And yes, I do have a problem with late-term abortion unless it's a threat to a woman's life or health. But "threat to health" is relative. Is having a baby with Down Syndrome a threat to a woman's health?

My friend was hemorrhaging to death from her baby. That's a threat to life. But is getting preeclampsia enough of a reason to abort, if it can be controlled medically?

I think that the need for 3 doctors to sign off was a way of making sure that it really was a threat. Getting rid of that = many more abortions for ticky-tacky reasons.


Now you really do have me curious.

You referred to abortion as "murder."

So do you believe that its not "murder" in the case of rape or incest? That it is "murder" but justified? Or was "murder" an ill-chosen word?

Also, who gets to decide what is a "ticky tacky" reason? Your friend was hemorrhaging, but I bet there are doctors who believe that the baby could have been saved with regular infusions. So is that a "ticky tacky" reason?

In fact, my former colleague was raped at age 14 by a friend's uncle, carried the baby to term (gave her up for adoption) and is emotionally fine today. So is rape a "ticky tacky" reason?

There are women here who have been advised to abort due to fetal anomalies. But some people carry children who will be severely disabled to term. Is it a "ticky tacky" reason?

Why do you get to make the decision?
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amother




Linen


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:26 pm
sushilover wrote:
I wasn't talking about NY laws.

But if you want to discuss NY's new laws,answer this: What measures are put in place to make sure that the abortion is medically necessary? You came up with several good ideas upthread; such as consulting with a ethics committee, making a mandatory wait time, and having the mother get a psychological eval. These are all good ideas that deserve consideration.

Do you know who is against every one of your ideas?
Pro choice advocates and Planned Parenthood.
They would call you "anti-women's choice" if you dared propose such laws to ensure that only truly necessary abortions were performed.


I most assuredly did NOT say that there should be a mandatory wait time. That's just a way of denying women's rights.

I simply stated a truism -- that a doctor will need to evaluate a woman in order to determine if her health or life is at risk in a late term abortion. The law already says that. You just want to second guess the doctor.
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gamanit




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:41 pm
amother wrote:
Now you really do have me curious.

You referred to abortion as "murder."

So do you believe that its not "murder" in the case of rape or incest? That it is "murder" but justified? Or was "murder" an ill-chosen word?

Also, who gets to decide what is a "ticky tacky" reason? Your friend was hemorrhaging, but I bet there are doctors who believe that the baby could have been saved with regular infusions. So is that a "ticky tacky" reason?

In fact, my former colleague was raped at age 14 by a friend's uncle, carried the baby to term (gave her up for adoption) and is emotionally fine today. So is rape a "ticky tacky" reason?

There are women here who have been advised to abort due to fetal anomalies. But some people carry children who will be severely disabled to term. Is it a "ticky tacky" reason?

Why do you get to make the decision?


In Jewish law abortion is viewed as murder in self defense. Each case needs to be viewed individually.[b]
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amother




Green


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:42 pm
Delete

Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Green


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:43 pm
Delete

Last edited by amother on Mon, Feb 11 2019, 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Maybe




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 5:53 pm
Today it is at birth.Tomorrow up to age 18 ???
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jan 31 2019, 8:22 pm
Maybe wrote:
Today it is at birth.Tomorrow up to age 18 ???


Tomorrow it will be the terrible twos, then it will be obnoxious tweens. Teenagers that won't get their act together are questionable. After 18, you can just throw them out of the house.

(I am not suggesting this at all!)

I do think that leaving a newborn to die is criminally negligent at best, and homicide at worst.

Is there such a legal form as a DNR for a baby who is about to be born? Can a parent instruct a doctor to just let the baby die without any attempt to help the child breathe? The comments about "Keeping the baby comfortable" are very vague. I'd like to know details. Do they give the baby a blanket, play soft music, give it a shot or two of morphine?
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