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amother
Honeydew
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 Tue, Feb 12 2019, 8:25 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | | My sister is a doctor, and she once told me that if she had known how time consuming it would be, she might've gone for a lesser degree (she mentioned something like physical therapy, which interested her.) |
That's so interesting, because my sister did this the other way around. She attended a community BY. The school didn't discourage students from taking SATs, but didn't give encourage preparation or help with college selection or admissions. My sister wanted to study medicine but ended up studying physical therapy. She worked as a PT in a hospital for a few years and then went to med school and residency.
She works part-time now.
Posting as amother because hers is an unusual career path and probably identifying.
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amother
Lilac
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Tue, Feb 12 2019, 8:34 pm
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I'm wondering where the parents are in all these stories. Why is it all on the school to push the students for higher education? It happens to be that my school did provide SAT prep, as I wrote earlier. But my mother was the one who explained to me why it was worthwhile to study and try to get the highest grade possible. She was the one who guided me in choosing a career path- the school certainly didn't know what that was, or have any say in the matter. My siblings and I all received postgraduate degrees. Not because of the schools we attended, and not despite the schools we attended. It was part of our home chinuch. Students who have that support from home will be fine wherever they go. Students who don't have that support have a much bigger mountain to climb than figuring out how to take the SATs.
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amother
Bronze
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Tue, Feb 12 2019, 9:07 pm
| amother wrote: | | I'm wondering where the parents are in all these stories. Why is it all on the school to push the students for higher education? It happens to be that my school did provide SAT prep, as I wrote earlier. But my mother was the one who explained to me why it was worthwhile to study and try to get the highest grade possible. She was the one who guided me in choosing a career path- the school certainly didn't know what that was, or have any say in the matter. My siblings and I all received postgraduate degrees. Not because of the schools we attended, and not despite the schools we attended. It was part of our home chinuch. Students who have that support from home will be fine wherever they go. Students who don't have that support have a much bigger mountain to climb than figuring out how to take the SATs. |
In my sister's case, many of the parents had no clue. She had a lot of friends who were oldest children. My parents knew practically nothing about the college admissions process when I was in eleventh grade- they both had completely different kinds of experiences (my dad went to night school after beis midrash, back when that was actually considered acceptable for unmarried guys, and my mom went to a Bais Yaakov that heavily discouraged college and ended up working her way up from community college). But the school had an info night that taught them. I was a very determined kid and would have figured my way to get where I wanted to go no matter what (I was one of those kids who frequented College Confidential lol), and my parents would have helped, but I would have been at a serious disadvantage and not known all of my options. If not for my high school, I would have never considered the college I eventually ended up attending.
My sister's friends have younger parents than mine, who also had no college prep guidance and did the method of least resistance themselves. At least one actually did want to do the right thing for her kid as far as further education, but was doing things like researching how frum-friendly Columbia is rather than ensuring that her kid took the SAT on time- and studied for it- so that she could actually be accepted there. She had very little knowledge of the actual facts on the ground. In the end, my mom had to give her an impromptu tutorial about how this all works, and the kid is going to Touro Manhattan with an honors scholarship because her parents not only cared enough to be proactive but actually found someone who could walk them through it.
The issue is- some of my sister's friends who had parents who didn't know/care about these things actually wanted to pursue something outside the usual four degrees, wanted to go somewhere that offered actual day classes, wanted to go somewhere that would give an academic scholarship, but only discovered this later on, when they found out that these things existed from those one or two girls who knew about it from home. This is costing these girls, and their families, large amounts of money that they may not have! These are girls who WANT something more, but they discover that they are just too late to achieve it.
Maybe I'm just lucky and taking some things for granted, but high schools have a responsibility to make sure that a child is ready for the next step educationally and so that means that they should be responsible for making sure that their students know all of their options when it comes to college prep. Whatever effort the school puts into making sure their students are able to be accepted to seminary- and there, schools bring in sem principals, coordinate interviews, give advice on where to apply, hondel behind the scenes with the principals to make sure everyone gets in somewhere- should also be put into making sure their students get into college. The amount of assistance and prep I got was huge, but you don't have to go that far- just describe the SAT/ACT at the beginning of eleventh grade, explain the admissions process, give a general timeline to be looking into things, etc. What actually ends up happening will be decided more based on what's going on at home, but schools should be making sure that those students whose parents might be clueless at least have the tools to get started.
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Maya
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Tue, Feb 12 2019, 9:30 pm
| A_Mother_First wrote: | | Putting quotation marks around the word struggles is disrespectful. Who are you to decide and define what a struggle is for someone else? Just because her story may not be as dramatic or as a clear cut case of educational deprivation as the boys' yeshivas does not make it less real for her. I disagree with her about taking her gripes out publicly (not something I would personally choose to do), but she is entitled to her frustration and even anger. What is 'good enough' education for many frum women may not be good enough for her. We do not know that the facts she had stated are not true, and just because most of us know BY schools where taking SATs is the norm, does not mean that her story did not happen or that it is not worth telling. Somehow, I do not think she made it up. |
My issue was her comparison to boys chedarim, and relative to that, yes her struggles are negligible. I’m sorry if you find that disrespectful.
If you continue to read the thread, you will see where I say that I believe her story, but it is about fraud, not about the lack of education.
I know nothing about Bais Yaakovs and have not said one word about whether they allow SATs or not. I just don’t know. But I do know that they provide a better education than Chassidish boys chedarim, which is what YAFFED is fighting for.
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amother
Copper
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Tue, Feb 12 2019, 10:51 pm
| marina wrote: | https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c508853e4b0f43e410b6ad0
I can’t believe she really doesn’t get it. |
Compare this story with someone who got her education from a chasidishe school. Not being allowed to take the SAT's is nothing compared to what chasidishe girls experience--
https://bklyner.com/faigy-roth.....IsS9w
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amother
Olive
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 8:11 am
went to public school and my parents also didn't guide me regarding higher education
just sayin
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A_Mother_First
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 11:59 am
| Maya wrote: | My issue was her comparison to boys chedarim, and relative to that, yes her struggles are negligible. I’m sorry if you find that disrespectful.
If you continue to read the thread, you will see where I say that I believe her story, but it is about fraud, not about the lack of education.
I know nothing about Bais Yaakovs and have not said one word about whether they allow SATs or not. I just don’t know. But I do know that they provide a better education than Chassidish boys chedarim, which is what YAFFED is fighting for. |
Maya, I get it that her plight may not be as profound as those Chasidish boys. But you also wrote: "Why does everyone feel like they have to tell a story, when there is nothing really to tell." This really irked me. Everybody has a story to tell. It may not be your story or mine, but it is her story, and she has a right to it. What may seem to you as a relatively negligible point, may have had a lot of impact on her personal life. And yes, it sounds like she did have to struggle to get to the place she is at today. This is her story. You can like it or not, agree with it or not, but it is still her narrative, and I respect her for it.
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Chayalle
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 1:56 pm
| amother wrote: | | I'm wondering where the parents are in all these stories. Why is it all on the school to push the students for higher education? It happens to be that my school did provide SAT prep, as I wrote earlier. But my mother was the one who explained to me why it was worthwhile to study and try to get the highest grade possible. She was the one who guided me in choosing a career path- the school certainly didn't know what that was, or have any say in the matter. My siblings and I all received postgraduate degrees. Not because of the schools we attended, and not despite the schools we attended. It was part of our home chinuch. Students who have that support from home will be fine wherever they go. Students who don't have that support have a much bigger mountain to climb than figuring out how to take the SATs. |
True. And many parents who send their kids to a BY school do not expect or want their kids to pursue a higher education.
My father encouraged me to pursue a degree only because I told him I was going to marry someone who will learn long-term. He told me someone has to earn a parnassah, either you or your husband. If I would've been dating working boys, I could've been a SAHM like my mother (who had a college degree and didn't use it much.)
I agree with you that this is not all on the schools - the parents share the responsibility. And this is true of the Chassidish schools as well - the supply is meeting the demand. The parents are making the choice to send their children to these schools.
I taught high school Math and English for a short period of time, in a very RW yeshivish school. I'd walk into class and the students would try to waste class time by asking me why they needed to study the subject I was trying to teach, when B"EH they would be wives and mothers of lots of babies and not needing to know this stuff? I would try to tell them how Algebra might apply to their lives, and also that they had brains they could use...but it was like preaching to the choir. They were parroting exactly what they heard at home.
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Fox
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 1:58 pm
| amother wrote: | went to public school and my parents also didn't guide me regarding higher education
just sayin |
I think many posters are a little naive about both the amount and quality of the "help" that is available to students in navigating higher education.
Most of the comparisons being made here are contrasting Jewish schools not with typical public or even private religious schools, but with elite urban institutions that either charge astronomical tuition or are located in very high-income school districts.
My observation is that the vast majority of typical high schools that have college prep counselors do not really do a very good job of it. Most do very little beyond providing students with a checklist of application materials and reminders to sign up for the SATs.
So while it is true that students with parents who are savvy about higher education have a distinct advantage, I have my doubts that throwing more bodies at the problem will really solve it.
I do think that Jewish schools have a disastrous strategy in how they "market" their students, whether for work or higher education. Years ago, when I worked with college accreditation for Skokie Yeshiva, I faced down a couple of on-site reviewers from the agency who were quibbling about the low SAT scores we accepted.
I pointed out that our admission standards required students be functionally bilingual (English and Biblical Hebrew) or trilingual (English, Biblical Hebrew, and Aramaic), and I asked them to name a single institution under their review that simply didn't accept a student who wasn't able to read original sources in the original language. No more was said.
This is not an excuse for lousy secular education (or lousy religious studies, which is just as much of a problem, frankly). It's just a comment that we often spend more time apologizing for inadequacies than highlighting the parts of Jewish education that put even the most rigorous secular school to shame.
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chestnut
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 2:03 pm
| Fox wrote: | I think many posters are a little naive about both the amount and quality of the "help" that is available to students in navigating higher education.
Most of the comparisons being made here are contrasting Jewish schools not with typical public or even private religious schools, but with elite urban institutions that either charge astronomical tuition or are located in very high-income school districts.
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Finally someone said it!!
(Now we'll see comments about some super good regular public schools being compared to average frum schools. When do people start comparing apples to apples when it comes to frum schools?)
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nchr
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 2:07 pm
| chestnut wrote: | Finally someone said it!!
(Now we'll see comments about some super good regular public schools being compared to average frum schools. When do people start comparing apples to apples when it comes to frum schools?) |
Deleted because I had not properly understood the comment I responded to.
Last edited by nchr on Wed, Feb 13 2019, 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Navy
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 2:19 pm
Comparing apples to apples is a fine comparison because then one is comparing public schools whose student body in general comes from families with parents who are invested in their children's intellectual and emotional growth.
In those schools one is going to have resources allocated to guiding pupils since in those schools the goal of most parents is to have their children attend college. However, they may not be completely informed as the best way to navigate college selection including finances; scholarship; SAT's etc.
Even in public schools with a more mixed student body, there are generally honor tracks in which students are afforded more guidance since these are perceived as headed towards college as a goal.
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amother
Royalblue
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 2:51 pm
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In most BY type high schools, college "advisement" primarily means seminary advisement. What college should you go to? Well, Touro of course. All these credits taken in 12th grade will only be accepted there, and this is intentional. Regular APs that are accepted everywhere? Maybe one or two. SAT prep? Do it on your own time, and pay for by yourself. Your high school tuition does not cover it.
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amother
Babyblue
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 2:55 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | True. And many parents who send their kids to a BY school do not expect or want their kids to pursue a higher education.
My father encouraged me to pursue a degree only because I told him I was going to marry someone who will learn long-term. He told me someone has to earn a parnassah, either you or your husband. If I would've been dating working boys, I could've been a SAHM like my mother (who had a college degree and didn't use it much.)
I agree with you that this is not all on the schools - the parents share the responsibility. And this is true of the Chassidish schools as well - the supply is meeting the demand. The parents are making the choice to send their children to these schools.
I taught high school Math and English for a short period of time, in a very RW yeshivish school. I'd walk into class and the students would try to waste class time by asking me why they needed to study the subject I was trying to teach, when B"EH they would be wives and mothers of lots of babies and not needing to know this stuff? I would try to tell them how Algebra might apply to their lives, and also that they had brains they could use...but it was like preaching to the choir. They were parroting exactly what they heard at home. |
My parents both have degrees (extremely advanced ones) and never encouraged me or my siblings to go to college. (although those of us who decided on our own to go - generally after marriage - did get help and encouragement from them)
In fact, even though my mother went out to work every day at a pretty prestigious job - one that no one else's mother was doing - as a little girl I also felt like the students in Chayalle's school - why learn since one will just become a mother.
What my parents really wanted us all to do was become shluchim, not professionals like themselves, and in that they mostly succeeded.
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nchr
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 4:40 pm
| amother wrote: | | In most BY type high schools, college "advisement" primarily means seminary advisement. What college should you go to? Well, Touro of course. All these credits taken in 12th grade will only be accepted there, and this is intentional. Regular APs that are accepted everywhere? Maybe one or two. SAT prep? Do it on your own time, and pay for by yourself. Your high school tuition does not cover it. |
All schools do need more college and career advisement, as well as exposure to a greater variety of classes in high school. Students should be able to take a philosophy, anthropology, engineering, political science, architecture, coding, etc. class as an elective in High Schools. More schools are requiring a single engineering class as particular of the curriculum today; however, career guidance and major exposure does fall short, across the spectrum. It is just especially poor in many frum schools where students may have no idea that there even are so many majors to choose from, which can force people into jobs (or lack thereof) simply because they do not feel like a right fit for what is available.
Last edited by nchr on Wed, Feb 13 2019, 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chestnut
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 4:54 pm
| nchr wrote: | Okay. Compare these public schools to a typical frum bais yaakov school.
Monroe-Woodbury
Clarkstown
Sayville |
Chassidishe girls' schools aren't BY schools. Do you seriously expect them to talk about college?
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happybeingamom
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 4:54 pm
| nchr wrote: | | All schools do need more college and career advisement, as well as exposure to a greater variety of classes in high school. Students should be able to take a philosophy, anthropology, engineering, political science, architecture, coding, etc. class as an elective in High Schools. More schools are requiring a single engineering class as particular of the curriculum today; however, career guidance and major exposure does fall short, across the spectrum. It is just especially poor in many frum schools where students may have no idea that there even are so many majors to choose from, which can force people into jobs (or lack thereof) simply because they do feel like a right fit for what is available. |
Sounds nice but who is paying for this?
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amother
Lilac
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 5:04 pm
| nchr wrote: | | All schools do need more college and career advisement, as well as exposure to a greater variety of classes in high school. Students should be able to take a philosophy, anthropology, engineering, political science, architecture, coding, etc. class as an elective in High Schools. More schools are requiring a single engineering class as particular of the curriculum today; however, career guidance and major exposure does fall short, across the spectrum. It is just especially poor in many frum schools where students may have no idea that there even are so many majors to choose from, which can force people into jobs (or lack thereof) simply because they do feel like a right fit for what is available. |
That's not really realistic within the constraints of a dual curriculum, unless you extend an already long school day.
ETA though I don't think it's uncommon to offer a small number of those electives. I took political science in a Brooklyn BY. My kids have coding classes in their yeshiva elementary school.
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nchr
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 8:05 pm
| chestnut wrote: | | Chassidishe girls' schools aren't BY schools. Do you seriously expect them to talk about college? | .
No, I don't.
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nchr
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Wed, Feb 13 2019, 8:08 pm
| amother wrote: | That's not really realistic within the constraints of a dual curriculum, unless you extend an already long school day.
ETA though I don't think it's uncommon to offer a small number of those electives. I took political science in a Brooklyn BY. My kids have coding classes in their yeshiva elementary school. |
So extend the day, or have less of another subject, specifically with regards to girls. Or have one subject that addresses the variety of options just so kids know the plethora of careers thay actually exist.
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