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amother
Amber
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 Tue, Feb 19 2019, 1:34 pm
| malki2 wrote: | | I don’t have any statistics for this, but from personal and anecdotal experience, I believe that, for example, Jewish cancer patients live well beyond their original doctors’ prognoses. More so than other patients. I believe that much of this is due to the power of prayer. |
My BFF, for whom from Day 1 after diagnosis there was a Tehillum group and for whom the whole Sefer was recited countless times during her illness, lasted all of five months. Six month survival rate from initial diagnosis is about 50-60%. That doesn’t sound to me like living much longer than other patients. Yes, I know, maybe the original gezerah was to live just weeks and instead it was months, but we’ll never know, will we? So far in my experience not one person for whom I said Tehillim recovered. So while I like to believe in the power of prayer, I don’t view it as “Daven and you will see guaranteed yeshuos!” It just doesn’t work that way. I can only hope that my prayers contributed to mitigating pain, easing transition, or giving emotional comfort, because they sure as heck don’t appear to have changed the net result.
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amother
Cyan
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 1:56 pm
I don’t believe there is such a thing as a wasted tefilla.
At a minimum, davening, tehillim, segulos strengthen my emunah and give me the strength to deal with my challenges.
Connecting to HKBH helps me believe there is a purpose for everything, including suffering.
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amother
Brown
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 2:27 pm
If you speak Loshon Hora, then all the davening in the world won't help you. If you posted Loshon Hora to your local community WhatsApp group, then you just gave all your Mitzvos to the person you spoke Loshon Hora about. Not only that, but all the recipients of the WhatsApp group who accept the Loshon Hora without question just gave their Mitzvos away, too.
I just want to thank all of you who speak Loshon Hora about me. Please don't stop since I don't have the patience to say Tehillim, so I appreciate all the Mitzvos you are giving me. And even though I don't recite Tehillim ever, I can honestly say that my life has improved dramatically since I became a pariah among certain segments of my community.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 2:35 pm
| malki2 wrote: | | I would hope that a prerequisite to being allowed to post on this site would be the ascribance to the belief in the power of tefilah. . . |
Absolutely!
But see amother sienna a few posts earlier on p. 1.
We don't live lives measuring "results."
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amother
Babyblue
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 3:22 pm
I was asked this question by a non Jewish teen last week. He asked me how my life is any better compared to his, since he never prays and doesn't believe in anything while I pray and believe.
I don't think there's an answer we can give that will satisfy ... But I sure wouldn't wanna live a life believing everything that happens to me is pure luck. He gets up and is healthy.. got lucky. I get up.. I'm thankful. He wants something he hopes, I want something I pray and know someone is listening. Doesn't mean I'll get it and he won't. But when I do get it, I'm thankful, when I don't.. I know it wouldn't have been good for me.
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flowerpower
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 3:33 pm
| amother wrote: | I was asked this question by a non Jewish teen last week. He asked me how my life is any better compared to his, since he never prays and doesn't believe in anything while I pray and believe.
I don't think there's an answer we can give that will satisfy ... But I sure wouldn't wanna live a life believing everything that happens to me is pure luck. He gets up and is healthy.. got lucky. I get up.. I'm thankful. He wants something he hopes, I want something I pray and know someone is listening. Doesn't mean I'll get it and he won't. But when I do get it, I'm thankful, when I don't.. I know it wouldn't have been good for me. |
I have been wondering about that for a while. I know 2 athiests( none jews) that have beautiful healthy kids, good marriage, and money. Are they just lucky? Is it in merit of something their great grandparents did? What is it?
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sneakermom
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 4:01 pm
The issue is that in this world Hashem is hidden.
Even though we don’t breathe without him. Or blink. Or sneeze. We imagine we are independent and doing fine.
Also Hashem doesn’t make us ask for everything. He gives and gives with an open hand. We get food, shelter, clothing, love, nachas. Etc.
And when we pray. Often the yeshua is disguised in everyday life. Like you could explain the whole thing away.
He makes himself barely noticeable.
That doesn’t mean that your tefilah doesn’t make a great impact in shamayim. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have the power to impact change.
But usually it won’t be so clear. And there will always be room to see it as a coincidence or natural occurance.
Sometimes if you’re very lucky Hashem takes down that “fourth wall” and you see him clearly. If that happens it’s a special zechus and a treasure.
I remember once as a seminary student something happened and I felt very stuck about what to do. I went to the kosel to daven and when I got back the whole issue just fell away.
Then it was so clear. But it could still be minimized and blamed on coincidence. Which is exactly Hashem’s style. He always leaves room for bechirah.
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sneakermom
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 4:08 pm
As far as not getting the result we are asking for. Like a poster mentioned davening for a sick person and they die anyways.
It’s hard. It’s hard for me to digest it. I feel like Hashem sometimes gives such a strong gezeira and it feels without mercy.
Don’t have an answer. More for the fact that Hashem made that person sick to begin with. Why?
Being that today is Purim Katan a day of mercy. I bentch all of us and all of klall yisroel we shiuld not need hospitals and there should be no more pain.
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malki2
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 4:30 pm
| flowerpower wrote: | | I have been wondering about that for a while. I know 2 athiests( none jews) that have beautiful healthy kids, good marriage, and money. Are they just lucky? Is it in merit of something their great grandparents did? What is it? |
Same question Moshe Rabenu asked Hashem. Why is it that tzaddik vera lo and rasha vetov lo?
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malki2
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 4:34 pm
| amother wrote: | | My BFF, for whom from Day 1 after diagnosis there was a Tehillum group and for whom the whole Sefer was recited countless times during her illness, lasted all of five months. Six month survival rate from initial diagnosis is about 50-60%. That doesn’t sound to me like living much longer than other patients. Yes, I know, maybe the original gezerah was to live just weeks and instead it was months, but we’ll never know, will we? So far in my experience not one person for whom I said Tehillim recovered. So while I like to believe in the power of prayer, I don’t view it as “Daven and you will see guaranteed yeshuos!” It just doesn’t work that way. I can only hope that my prayers contributed to mitigating pain, easing transition, or giving emotional comfort, because they sure as heck don’t appear to have changed the net result. |
I am speaking generally and not based on one specific story. Obviously everyone knows a story or two where it did not seem like anything happened. But in general, I believe that what I said is true. Also, if your prayers contributed to mitigating pain, they definitely did do something!
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amother
Pearl
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 4:40 pm
This is not an answer to your question.
However, when I daven I think of the meaning of the words and I connect to Hashem and feel more serene.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 5:38 pm
I have come to know as I have gotten older that there is something seriously wrong with the whole premise of the question. I'm not sure if I can explain it though.
We are not put in this world to get a yeshuah. We are not put in this world to have an easy time of it. Everything is created lichvodo, for Hashem's honour. We are supposed to spend our time being His partner in making His name known in the world. If we ask asking for yeshuah its supposed to be that we want it to be easier for us to serve Him. If we run into a difficult situation that causes us to do more davening or other mitzvos, then the gift is really the Opportunity and the Inspiration to do these extra mitzvos.
I also find this difficult to put into practice when I am having a very hard time with something, so I do understand the question and the thinking behind it. However it is flawed thinking in that everything that Hashem gives us it ultimately for His kavod.
Im sounding very lofty in this post but don't always think this way.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 5:52 pm
| malki2 wrote: | | Same question Moshe Rabenu asked Hashem. Why is it that tzaddik vera lo and rasha vetov lo? |
In fact Moshe did not just want to know why, he wanted this to be taken away.
But Hashem's "answer" to this question is actually in this week's Parsha Ki Sissa. Particularly the second half of Shemos chapter 33. Two important posukim that everyone should learn in more depth-
Shemos 33:20 - where Hashem says no man can see me and live לא יראני האדם וחי
and
Shemos 33:24 - where Hashem only allows Moshe to see His back והסירתי את כפי וראיתי את אחרי ופנו לא יראו
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 6:28 pm
I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post was that if you heard kids in the playground having a discussion along the lines of "if you ask your parents nicely do they actually end up giving you more stuff" or "do kids who do more chores for their parents end up being allowed to go.out more.and more internet time,?" I think you would probably feel that there was something not quite right with the whole conversation.
That's sort of what I meant.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Feb 19 2019, 7:32 pm
| amother wrote: | I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post was that if you heard kids in the playground having a discussion along the lines of "if you ask your parents nicely do they actually end up giving you more stuff" or "do kids who do more chores for their parents end up being allowed to go.out more.and more internet time,?" I think you would probably feel that there was something not quite right with the whole conversation.
That's sort of what I meant. |
Yeah, Hashem is not a vending machine, we can't manipulate Him (though I heard that originally it was possible to manipulate natural forces and this is avodah zara - getting what you want through other means rather than the real work of connecting to Hashem).
OTOH, the parent child relationship is a metaphor for how we are to relate to Hashem. Rav Hirsch says that it's important not to let an infant cry because we are imprinting absolute faith that Hashem takes care of our needs. So it is important for children to feel their needs are taken care of. But there comes a point where we need to start teaching delayed gratification and that sometimes the answer is no. This actually starts pretty young.
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imasoftov
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Wed, Feb 20 2019, 7:08 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | ... I heard that originally it was possible to manipulate natural forces and this is avodah zara - getting what you want through other means rather than the real work of connecting to Hashem). |
Here's a Gemara that says otherwise.
https://www.sefaria.org.il/Avo.....g2=en
א"ל זונין לר"ע לבי ולבך ידע דעבודת כוכבים לית בה מששא והא קחזינן גברי דאזלי כי מתברי ואתו כי מצמדי מ"ט
Zunin said to Rabbi Akiva: Both my heart and your heart know that there is no substance to idol worship. Nevertheless, don’t we see people who go with broken limbs to worship idols and come back when they are whole? What is the reason for this?
אמר לו אמשול לך משל למה"ד לאדם נאמן שהיה בעיר וכל בני עירו היו מפקידין אצלו שלא בעדים ובא אדם אחד והפקיד לו בעדים פעם אחד שכח והפקיד אצלו שלא בעדים אמרה לו אשתו בוא ונכפרנו אמר לה וכי מפני ששוטה זה עשה שלא כהוגן אנו נאבד את אמונתינו
Rabbi Akiva said to Zunin: I will relate a parable to you. To what is this matter comparable? It can be compared to a trusted person who was in a certain city, and all the residents of his city would deposit items and money with him, even not in the presence of witnesses. And there was one man who did not trust him, who came and specifically deposited money with him in the presence of witnesses. On one occasion, that person forgot and deposited money with him not in the presence of witnesses. The trusted man’s wife said to him: Come, let us deny that he deposited the money with us, as there are no witnesses. The man said to her: Should we lose our credibility and act deceitfully just because this fool acted improperly and did not require the presence of witnesses?
אף כך יסורין בשעה שמשגרין אותן על האדם משביעין אותן שלא תלכו אלא ביום פלוני ולא תצאו אלא ביום פלוני ובשעה פלונית ועל ידי פלוני ועל ידי סם פלוני כיון שהגיע זמנן לצאת הלך זה לבית עבודת כוכבים אמרו יסורין דין הוא שלא נצא וחוזרין ואומרים וכי מפני ששוטה זה עושה שלא כהוגן אנו נאבד שבועתנו
So too, with regard to different forms of suffering, at the time when they are sent to afflict the person, an oath is administered to them as follows: Take an oath that you shall not go and afflict the person except on such and such a day. And you shall not leave him except on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, by means of so-and-so, a specific doctor, and by means of such and such a medicine. When the time came for the suffering to leave him, this sick man went to a temple of idol worship. The forms of suffering said: By right we should not leave him. But then they say: Should we lose the fulfillment of our oath just because this fool is acting improperly?
But perhaps you might say, that was true in the time of R Akiva, but previously, AZ worked? So here's one that attributes miracles of AZ to either science (a magnet) or magic, but the magic uses HKBH's name, the AZ has no magic of its own.
https://www.sefaria.org.il/San.....g2=en
מאי עבד איכא דאמרי אבן שואבת תלה לחטאת ירבעם והעמידה בין שמים לארץ ואיכא דאמרי שם חקק בפיה והיתה מכרזת ואומרת אנכי ולא יהיה לך
What did he (Gehazi) do that caused the masses to sin? There are those who say that he hung a magnetic rock on Jeroboam’s sin, I.e., on the golden calf that Jeroboam established as an idol, so that he suspended it between heaven and earth, I.e., he caused it to hover above the ground. This seemingly miraculous occurrence caused the people to worship it even more devoutly than before. And there are those who say: He engraved the sacred name of God on its mouth, and it would declare and say: “I am the Lord your God” (Exodus 20:2), and: “You shall not have other gods” (Exodus 20:3). The idol would quote the two prohibitions from the Ten Commandments that prohibit idol worship, causing the people to worship it even more devoutly than before.
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Feb 20 2019, 7:35 am
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imasoftov, thanks. I may have misunderstood. It was part of a shiur, not something I learned inside. I think the point was that it was possible - through magic, etc., as you write - to manipulate nature, which was the shortcut that made the distance to Hashem longer, and avoided connecting to Hashem for our needs.
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someone
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Wed, Feb 20 2019, 8:30 am
This discussion reminds me of what Rachelle Fraenkel (mother of Naftali Fraenkel hy"d, one of the three boys who was kidnapped and murdered a few years ago) said during those crazy three weeks when the whole of am yisrael davened like crazy that they would be found.
She was at the kotel and she met a bunch of young boys there who said something about how the boys would definitely be found because everyone is davening. She didn't want these kids to have a crisis of faith if in the end they weren't found alive. So she told them that "הקדוש ברוך הוא לא עובד אצלנו" - Hashem doesn't work for us. We daven and ask him for what we need, he will answer however he wants.
What impressed me so much about that story was that she didn't say it after their bodies were found, she said it while they were still looking for them. That's emunah in the power of tefillah - saying we believe in the power of prayer doesn't mean we think Hashem is a vending machine - we believe that prayer has an impact on the world, that no prayer goes unanswered, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we will get what we asked for. We have no way of knowing what power that tefillah had. (I once heard an idea in the name of Rav Neriya that Moshe Rabbeinu's tefillot to enter Israel opened a wellspring of longing for the Land of Israel and every single Jew who has come to Israel ever since has come on the power of those prayers).
Which reminds me of the story of Nachshon Wacksman's father (Nachshon was a solider kidnapped by Hamas, the entire country davened for him, people who had never lit shabbat candles lit candles, etc. In the end he was killed during the failed rescue attempt). After he was killed an interviewer asked his father how all those prayers went unanswered. He replied, they didn't go unanswered - sometimes a father can say no.
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amother
Seagreen
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Wed, Feb 20 2019, 9:26 am
| someone wrote: | This discussion reminds me of what Rachelle Fraenkel (mother of Naftali Fraenkel hy"d, one of the three boys who was kidnapped and murdered a few years ago) said during those crazy three weeks when the whole of am yisrael davened like crazy that they would be found.
She was at the kotel and she met a bunch of young boys there who said something about how the boys would definitely be found because everyone is davening. She didn't want these kids to have a crisis of faith if in the end they weren't found alive. So she told them that "הקדוש ברוך הוא לא עובד אצלנו" - Hashem doesn't work for us. We daven and ask him for what we need, he will answer however he wants.
What impressed me so much about that story was that she didn't say it after their bodies were found, she said it while they were still looking for them. That's emunah in the power of tefillah - saying we believe in the power of prayer doesn't mean we think Hashem is a vending machine - we believe that prayer has an impact on the world, that no prayer goes unanswered, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we will get what we asked for. We have no way of knowing what power that tefillah had. (I once heard an idea in the name of Rav Neriya that Moshe Rabbeinu's tefillot to enter Israel opened a wellspring of longing for the Land of Israel and every single Jew who has come to Israel ever since has come on the power of those prayers).
Which reminds me of the story of Nachshon Wacksman's father (Nachshon was a solider kidnapped by Hamas, the entire country davened for him, people who had never lit shabbat candles lit candles, etc. In the end he was killed during the failed rescue attempt). After he was killed an interviewer asked his father how all those prayers went unanswered. He replied, they didn't go unanswered - sometimes a father can say no. | [u]
I've always struggled with the concept of "no prayer goes unanswered". For me to truly internalize something it has to make sense. At least a little. If you child is struggling in school and you go to the PTA and the teacher smiles at you and says everything is great, you'd be confused. I guess it really comes down to blind faith. To daven and still have a tragedy happen while hashem is all-loving and accepting our tefilos is impossible to understand. (At least for me) To then just say, hashem loves us, and no tefila is wasted, what does that mean? How do we understand it in a way that makes a drop of sense?
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singleagain
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Wed, Feb 20 2019, 9:41 am
| someone wrote: | This discussion reminds me of what Rachelle Fraenkel (mother of Naftali Fraenkel hy"d, one of the three boys who was kidnapped and murdered a few years ago) said during those crazy three weeks when the whole of am yisrael davened like crazy that they would be found.
She was at the kotel and she met a bunch of young boys there who said something about how the boys would definitely be found because everyone is davening. She didn't want these kids to have a crisis of faith if in the end they weren't found alive. So she told them that "הקדוש ברוך הוא לא עובד אצלנו" - Hashem doesn't work for us. We daven and ask him for what we need, he will answer however he wants.
What impressed me so much about that story was that she didn't say it after their bodies were found, she said it while they were still looking for them. That's emunah in the power of tefillah - saying we believe in the power of prayer doesn't mean we think Hashem is a vending machine - we believe that prayer has an impact on the world, that no prayer goes unanswered, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we will get what we asked for. We have no way of knowing what power that tefillah had. (I once heard an idea in the name of Rav Neriya that Moshe Rabbeinu's tefillot to enter Israel opened a wellspring of longing for the Land of Israel and every single Jew who has come to Israel ever since has come on the power of those prayers).
Which reminds me of the story of Nachshon Wacksman's father (Nachshon was a solider kidnapped by Hamas, the entire country davened for him, people who had never lit shabbat candles lit candles, etc. In the end he was killed during the failed rescue attempt). After he was killed an interviewer asked his father how all those prayers went unanswered. He replied, they didn't go unanswered - sometimes a father can say no. |
I don't think I heard those stories before... Def not in a while, but I just wanted thank you for sharing it. It brought a tear to my eye
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