CHAOS IN LAKEWOOD: Hundreds of Yeshiva Bochrim Protest

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:02 am

Notsobusy wrote:

I know, this bothers me so much. I really want to respect our rabbonim and to teach my kids to respect them, and I think in a lot of ways they deserve our respect, but when they let themselves be convinced by people and don't check things out on their own, it's hard to have the same respect. And we see this happen again and again.

How can I teach my kids to respect rabbonim who listen blindly to a couple of idiots?

Read my link above.
And learn Ikvesa d'Meshicha to strengthen yourself on just this nekuda. As we get closer to Moshiach, it will be harder and harder not to give into Amalek, who personifies cynicism. This is our great challenge.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:17 am

PinkFridge wrote:

You know, I had some issues with the article I'm linking: was this necessary to be said, that necessary...But now I know why. Because the message is really important for all our posters to consider and digest.

https://cross-currents.com/201.....hero/

Yes, all parts of the message. First, that nearly every talmid chacham has some flaw. Second, that there is much to learn from them despite that flaw. Third, that we can choose not to learn from them in what they are not expert.

But this is a very non-Yeshivish hashkafa, I think. In the last several decades, perhaps longer, the approach has been that when you choose someone to be your rav, you listen to him in all matters. (This is one of the reasons that I could never live a Yeshivish lifestyle or live in a Yeshivish community.)

The anti-vax crisis and the ensuing chillul Hashem has made it more difficult to believe that every talmid chacham should be listened to across the board. But this lesson should have been learned right after the Holocaust, when listening to gedolim who were not political seers led to much more devastating consequences.

Notsobusy

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:20 am

Rappel wrote:

I'm curious: do you give your daughters the same license to freedom?

Yes! I don't expect them to help me from morning till night. I don't even need that much help. I'm not working in my kitchen every day from morning till night. Yesterday I turned over my kitchen, they all helped a lot. But my girls got together with the neighbors for a couple of hours, and my sons got to leave too.

I have a few teenagers and I couldn't possibly keep them all busy all day yesterday.

Mommyg8

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:32 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

We're supposedly yeshivish but I agree with this 100%. Maybe we're just old school yeshivish? Maybe the younger generation is different? I dont know, but I personally don't see this shift as a good thing at all.

Mommyg8

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:35 am

Notsobusy wrote:

Well I only have boys (and one little girl), I work almost full time, have very little cleaning help, so yes, I do need them home full time right now. And I don't understand why the girls don't have time off but the boys do.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:42 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Um, I definitely give my girls time off after they have helped. My daughter spent much of the day helping me - first doing some errands for me, then helping with peeling/cooking. In the evening, she went shopping with some friends - very well-deserved time-off.

I don't think going to a concert/kumzitz would've interested her, but I'm guessing boys are different (I don't have any sons, so I wouldn't know. I definitely think it would interest some of my nephews.)

Mommyg8

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:45 am

Chayalle wrote:

My boys don't start until late afternoon (chavrusos, davening, lunch, chilling till 3:00) so no, I couldn't spare them last night. But they'll iy'h be off tomorrow!

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:51 am

Rappel wrote:

I'm curious: do you give your daughters the same license to freedom?

I've got a house full of teenagers - boys and girls. Yes, they all help me. Yes, my boys have taken apart my dining room, cleaned every speck of it, and put it all back together for me. They've turned over my kitchen and cleaned up my outdoors. My daughters have done the shopping for me, taken care of my young ones and assist me in the kitchen. Additionally, my boys have helped out with Tomchei Shabbos, and lent their assistance to their shul too. This after a long winter of learning, waking up at the crack of dawn, studying, exams, tests, etc.

Give me one reasonable explanation why they shouldn't be having any down time? Why I shouldn't give my daughters permission to take a break and go ice-skating or to the mall with their friends? Why shouldn't I give my boys some time for themselves, to breathe and to refresh themselves? But for boys, the options are very limited. There aren't equivalent outlets for them. I'm not in Lakewood, so my boys wouldn't have taken part regardless, but I so with they'd offer something like this here for them - where I can be assured that they have kosher entertainment and not be exposed to something questionable. When I heard about this, my gut instinct was, What a great idea! What a beautiful way to give the boys a break, and let them relax and rejuvenate themselves with some beautiful music under the proper hashgacha.

And what do you think the result of this cancellation will be?. Even my B"H very good boys are talking about how out of touch the leaders of this generations are, how the leaders have zero inkling of what the boys go through today's days. If anything, this distances them from any respect to our leaders and their rebbes and doesn't warm their hearts in any way.

And to those who talk about how this generation is different from previous generations - they are different, but not because of them, but because of us. We demand so much more of our boys today's day. Everyone has to be a mtizeyun, everyone has to excel, and everyone has to follow the same path. The degree of this pressure upon our boys is hardly equivalent to what was going on years ago. Torah was chashuv then too, but today we made it out to be a very heavy yoke around the necks of our children. We don't offer any balance in life, and we wonder why they react this way?

sky

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:53 am

SuperWify wrote:

The article on Yeshiva world seems to have been taken down... Scratching Head

Considering there were videos of boys saying they wished they had guns against the police I’d say that is s good thing. I was horrified.

Regardless What we you think about the concert being cancelled what happened last night was horrible and is not the way a person should behave. Any time something happens you done approve you make a demonstration? You post cell phone numbers and addresses online? You keep an entire community awake? Require mutual aid from other cities? It’s s chillul Hashem of the highest degree.

I don’t know anything about anything - but Lakewood never allowed concerts as a Halacha zecher lchorbon. There are schools in Lakewood that have it - but typically not yeshivish yeshivas. I’m guessing (with no information) the word Kumzitz and siyum we’re trying to make it permissible. But I don’t know.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:02 am

sky wrote:

I agree that the behavior was totally unacceptable, in every which way. With that said, what options are we leaving the bochurim with? This has been happening too many times, and there doesn't seem to be a let up or anyone offering an alternative besides "go to Bais Medrash and learn". Where are the parents in this pictures? Do we ever stick up for our boys and discuss this with the Rebbes and RY's in a respectable manner? Where are the fathers of all these boys asking for acceptable entertainment for our bochurim? All we do, is privately complain about this, and publicly declare to our boys that we have to accept the Rabbonim's decisions even though we don't 100% understand it?

The boys don't have whom to turn to. The parents aren't there for them, or don't have the ability to help them out, their Rebbes and leaders don't understand them, it isn't a too far stretch to realize that eventually they'll take things into their own hands.

What our leaders don't get is that every action has an equal but opposite reaction. The more you push, the more you oppress, the bigger the reaction will be. It may not be present at first, but it simmers under the surface until it builds up to an explosion.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:03 am

chestnut wrote:

You know, people who persuaded the rabbis are bitter and disgusting, no doubt. But it does say lots about the rabbonim who went along and let themselves of being persuaded

This problem speaks to a deeper issue. The Vilna Gaon wasn't the posek in Vilna. Even though the community recognized that he was a once in a millennium treasure, and they supported him and his students financially, they understood that someone who spends twenty hours a day learning is too out of touch with ordinary life to give piskei halacha. That's a job for someone who lives among the people. But if you keep your future leaders isolated from real people and real issues, you end up with stories like this one. This kind of situation is likely to be more common in the future.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:13 am

Rappel wrote:

I'm curious: do you give your daughters the same license to freedom?

There have to be some perks. You have to know your own children and what the perks are. They can be anything from buying or chipping in for something for your daughter, a new CD while cleaning, a new sefer, outing, whatever. (I'm reserving judgment on this concert, I have no idea what my opinion is. I don't think it would have floated my boys' boat but this is irrelevant.)

Mevater

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:13 am

sky wrote:

Considering there were videos of boys saying they wished they had guns against the police I’d say that is s good thing. I was horrified.

Why were the boys angry at the police? The boys just said "police", but who they definitely really meant was the "FRUMKEIT POLICE".

The community cant see eye to eye on an issue, wanting to turn all the boys who wanted some kosher entertainment on time off, into Rosh Yeshiva material in their teens, and the (nebach) boys spout anger at the (nebach)police?

Like the police are guilty. Pretty funny.

DVOM

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:14 am

sky wrote:

I am so confused, and now also really curious!!

'Lakewood' doesn't allow concerts? Who is 'Lakewood'? Was this a concert? I'm at a loss to understand why a siyum/kumzitz would get banned.