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itsmeima




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:09 pm
"...Human life exists at conception, it ought to be protected." -Ben Shapiro

The Torah does not say that, Christians do!
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:21 pm
Abortion at any stage is considered murder according to the 7 Noahide laws. I wonder why that is?

Edit: I was being sarcastic here. I don't really wonder why. A fetus is a baby.


Last edited by ectomorph on Wed, May 15 2019, 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:24 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Abortion at any stage is considered murder according to the 7 Noahide laws. I wonder why that is?


I was wondering about this topic in the Torah. What's the textual source for this statement?
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:24 pm
https://www.ou.org/torah/mitzv.....de_laws_2/
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:25 pm
youngishbear wrote:
I was wondering about this topic in the Torah. What's the textual source for this statement?

I just linked above
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:26 pm
And here it is in Sanhedrin:
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.57b?lang=bi
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:30 pm
Sanhedrin 57b

57b
נהרג עליו

he is executed for killing him even though he acted in self-defense, and a descendant of Noah is also killed for this.

אשכח ר' יעקב בר אחא דהוה כתיב בספר אגדתא דבי רב בן נח נהרג בדיין א' ובעד אחד שלא בהתראה מפי איש ולא מפי אשה ואפילו קרוב משום רבי ישמעאל אמרו אף על העוברין

§ Rabbi Ya’akov bar Aḥa found that it was written in a book of Aggadot in the study hall of Rav: Contrary to the halakha with regard to a Jew, a descendant of Noah is executed on the basis of the verdict of even one judge, and by the testimony of even one witness, and without being given forewarning before committing the transgression. He can be judged or testified against only by the mouth of a man and not by the mouth of a woman; but even a relative may judge his case or testify against him. The Sages said in the name of Rabbi Yishmael that a descendant of Noah is executed even for killing fetuses.

מנהני מילי אמר רב יהודה דאמר קרא (בראשית ט, ה) אך את דמכם לנפשותיכם אדרוש אפילו בדיין אחד

The Gemara asks: From where are these matters derived? Rav Yehuda says: They are derived from that which the verse states: “And your blood of your lives I will require; at the hand of every animal I will require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man’s brother, I will require the life of man” (Genesis 9:5). It is derived from the term “I will require,” which is stated in the singular, that a descendant of Noah is executed on the basis of the verdict of even one judge.

(בראשית ט, ה) מיד כל חיה אפילו שלא בהתראה (בראשית ט, ה) אדרשנו ומיד האדם אפילו בעד אחד (בראשית ט, ה) מיד איש ולא מיד אשה אחיו אפילו קרוב

It is derived from the phrase “at the hand of every animal” that one is executed even without forewarning, as an animal certainly cannot forewarn someone. It is derived from the phrase “I will require it; and at the hand of man,” with “I” stated in the singular, that the sentence is issued on the basis of the testimony of even one witness. It is derived from the phrase “at the hand of every man,” that the judgment and testimony must be at the hand of a man, but not at the hand of a woman. It is derived from the term “his brother” that the testimony of the witness is accepted even if he is a relative of the defendant.

משום רבי ישמעאל אמרו אף על העוברין מאי טעמיה דרבי ישמעאל דכתיב (בראשית ט, ו) שופך דם האדם באדם דמו ישפך איזהו אדם שהוא באדם הוי אומר זה עובר שבמעי אמו

It is stated in that book of Aggadot that the Sages said in the name of Rabbi Yishmael: A descendant of Noah is executed even for killing fetuses. The Gemara asks: What is the reason for the opinion of Rabbi Yishmael? The Gemara answers: It is derived from that which is written: “One who sheds the blood of a person, by a person [ba’adam] his blood shall be shed” (Genesis 9:6). The word ba’adam literally means: In a person, and is interpreted homiletically: What is a person that is in a person? You must say: This is a fetus that is in its mother’s womb. Accordingly, a descendant of Noah is liable for killing a fetus.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:34 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Abortion at any stage is considered murder according to the 7 Noahide laws. I wonder why that is?

Edit: I was being sarcastic here. I don't really wonder why. A fetus is a baby.


Hmmm. So the rabbis who advise women to abort under certain circumstances are acting contrary to the Torah.
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:36 pm
I should have been clearer. Obviously abortion is considered murder at some point.

What is the Torah definition of the beginning of life/fetus? Is it from conception or after the first forty days? Or some other definition?
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:37 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Hmmm. So the rabbis who advise women to abort under certain circumstances are acting contrary to the Torah.

It is NEVER an easy shayla, and the definition of rodef is complicated. Can you refuse a c section if it will kill an otherwise viable baby?

But yes, especially Modern Orthodox rabbonim who allow them for non life threatening reasons, I do believe that is contrary to Torah and an example of secular views on the value of life infiltrating our society and distorting Torah values.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:38 pm
At any rate, Ben Shapiro is absolutely correct that the Torah Jewish view is that life begins at conception.
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:40 pm
ectomorph wrote:
At any rate, Ben Shapiro is absolutely correct that the Torah Jewish view is that life begins at conception.


I would appreciate a source for this.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:42 pm
I just provided above. Obviously abortion at any stage wouldn't be considered murder by the Talmud, if not for it being considered life at any stage...
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finallyamommy




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:44 pm
ectomorph wrote:
At any rate, Ben Shapiro is absolutely correct that the Torah Jewish view is that life begins at conception.


Then why is there a difference in status between a miscarriage before vs. after 40 days? Before, as far as I've learned, it doesn't "count" -- you'd still get to make a pidyon haben if you have a boy, etc.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:45 pm
ectomorph wrote:
At any rate, Ben Shapiro is absolutely correct that the Torah Jewish view is that life begins at conception.


Really?

AFAIK, a fetus is not considered a human being until 40 days.

Quote:
Human life begins in three stages. The stage of conception is the moment when
the soul comes into this world (Sanhedrin 91b) and your potential is defined (Niddah \6h/Tanchumri). At this stage the fetus is called may a b'alma, mere matter (.Yevamot 69b) and not a human being. The second stage begins at 40 days. The fetus is considered a human being, yet the mother’s life will take precedence and the fetus can be aborted if it is the cause of a health threat to the mother. The third stage is birth. Birth is the moment the
head emerges, or in a breach situation the majority of the body. From that moment
on, the child’s life and mother’s life are separate lives of equal importance.


(source -- AISH)

And while some Christians will tell us that if an 11 year old gets pregnant after she is raped, by a stranger or by her father, well, that's the silver lining in it all (https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2016/05/06/rape-pregnancies-are-a-silver-lining-from-god-says-missouri-lawmaker), rabbis will examine the situation and may advise abortion.
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:45 pm
ectomorph wrote:
I just provided above. Obviously abortion at any stage wouldn't be considered murder by the Talmud, if not for it being considered life at any stage...


I'm asking for a source for your definition of "murder" as "fetus at any stage." I didn't see this in the source you mentioned.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:49 pm
youngishbear wrote:
I'm asking for a source for your definition of "murder" as "fetus at any stage." I didn't see this in the source you mentioned.


Its a miscite. From Chabad:

Quote:
The first reference to abortion is in Genesis, when Noah and his descendants are forbidden to murder: “One who sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of G‑d He made man.”1

The sages of the Talmud point out that the phrase “one who sheds the blood of man through man” is more accurately translated as “one who sheds the blood of man within man.” Based on this Rabbi Ishmael learns that under ordinary circumstances the killing of a fetus is considered a capital offense for all descendants of Noah, I.e., humankind.2

Read in isolation, one could conclude that abortion is akin to murder. But things are not so simple. Here is what we read in Exodus:

Should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarried but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished when the woman’s husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges’ [orders].3

Since the Torah obligates only a monetary compensation but no capital punishment, the Torah seemingly views the fetus as property, not as a human life.

There are various ways of reconciling these verses (see footnote4). All agree, however, that under ordinary circumstances abortion is prohibited.


For completeness, fn 4 reads, "For example: (a) The fetus might or might not have been fully viable, and there is no way to know for certain. Thus, this technicality prevents us from holding the assailant liable for capital punishment. (b) The context of this verse is about murder, but in fact there may be a number of other prohibitions that were transgressed. (See Rabbi Avraham Steinberg, “Abortion and Miscarriage,” in Encyclopedia of Jewish Medical Ethics, for a list of the different opinions.)"
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:51 pm
ectomorph wrote:
It is NEVER an easy shayla, and the definition of rodef is complicated. Can you refuse a c section if it will kill an otherwise viable baby?

But yes, especially Modern Orthodox rabbonim who allow them for non life threatening reasons, I do believe that is contrary to Torah and an example of secular views on the value of life infiltrating our society and distorting Torah values.


No, its not an easy shayla.

But it IS a shayla. Which is very different from the Christian view that you seem to espouse. Indeed, the draconian Christian-based laws being passed recently actually take away our religious rights to ask those shaylas.
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sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:55 pm
itsmeima wrote:
"...Human life exists at conception, it ought to be protected." -Ben Shapiro

The Torah does not say that, Christians do!


He's not giving a Christian view OR a Jewish view.
He's giving the scientific view. Human life begins at conception.
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dancingqueen




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:56 pm
ectomorph wrote:
It is NEVER an easy shayla, and the definition of rodef is complicated. Can you refuse a c section if it will kill an otherwise viable baby?

But yes, especially Modern Orthodox rabbonim who allow them for non life threatening reasons, I do believe that is contrary to Torah and an example of secular views on the value of life infiltrating our society and distorting Torah values.


Posters here have gotten heterim to abort with a diagnosis of Down syndrome, and other genetic issues. I do not believe they were MO. I never heard of abortion being an MO thing.
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