Why play "Christian"?
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Post  Sun, May 19 2019, 8:24 am
sushilover wrote:
You yourself said that prolife laws would only infringe on our religious freedoms when the fetus is considered a rodef.
When the fetus is a halachically a rodef, even the most stringent prolife laws will allow it to be killed.

Except the concept of rodef in halacha is not only limited to extreme situations.

Read amother puce on the DH abortion thread. Or speak to a rav who actually deals in these issues. You'll see quickly that halacha is much broader than the Alabama law.
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Post  Sun, May 19 2019, 12:40 pm
sushilover wrote:
I never said that abortion is murder, not did I say the unborn are exactly like us.
But even a first term embryo/fetus is alive. If we found something on mars that has skin, a heartbeat, a developing brain, kidneys, eyes, nostrils, ears, and lungs (That's what a baby looks like 4 weeks after conception), we'd declare that we discovered life on mars, right? So why isn't a human considered alive at that stage?

See these terms are all subject to debate and there is clearly grey area here. But actively killing usually = murder in my books. But not everyone, including many rabbis, agree that an early first trimester abortion is outright murder, at least not on the same level of even a later term abortion, certainly not murdering someone already born. But some people believe that even the morning after pill is murder. Thus, the heated debate on this topic with lack of common ground.
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Post  Sun, May 19 2019, 2:17 pm
simcha2 wrote:
Except the concept of rodef in halacha is not only limited to extreme situations.

Read amother puce on the DH abortion thread. Or speak to a rav who actually deals in these issues. You'll see quickly that halacha is much broader than the Alabama law.

amother puce was not told that it was an issue of rodef and that she MUST abort. She was told that she should. Big difference.
It's also possible that her pregnancy was causing her mental health to be severely impacted. In that case, Alabama law would allow her to abort.

Until you bring proof that a fetus is considered a rodef by mainstream sources even when not severely impacting the mother physically or mentally, I will continue to say that the Alabama laws do not infringe on our religious rights!

(Marina posted a link to frum women sharing their abortion stories. Read it.
Two of them were forced into the abortion by their partners, and are haunted by it. Horrific.
One's baby was putting her life at risk. She didn't ask a shaila, and didn't need to.
Some had halachicaly mandated abortions which would be allowed even in Alabama (if they could find a provider. Many doctors are not comfortable doing a late term abortion, even if it is legal).
and quite a few were told they may, but not must. Some rabanim in those stories were very careful not to give a clear yes or no. There's a reason for that.)
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Post  Sun, May 19 2019, 4:36 pm
cbsp wrote:
By promoting the pro choice movement which has morphed from "rare" to "shout your abortion"

This is the real issue.

I am not qualified to assess how the AL restrictions might impact the halachically-mandated or approved termination of a pregnancy. However, all the new legislation that is cropping up is in response to the increasingly tone-deaf rhetoric of the pro-choice movement.

Every Pew and Gallup poll on the topic shows that the vast majority of Americans, including Evangelical Christians and Roman Catholics, believe that the law should allow for the termination of pregnancy in extreme cases. Very, very few people want a complete and total ban.

At the same time, we're not in 1973 anymore. Even when I had my kids in the 90s, ultrasound technology was such that a layman couldn't tell if there was a baby in there or if snow was expected in Montana. But anyone who's seen an ultrasound today knows darned well that a 12-16 week fetus looks like a baby.

Rather than acknowledge this reality and argue that while abortion is a tragedy but must nevertheless be available in certain cases, the pro-choice movement has attempted to frame it as the equivalent of an annual pap smear or mammogram. Under Cecile Richards, Planned Parenthood significantly decreased other women's health care services they provided and increasingly focused on building their abortion business. Richards stated that her goal was to make political advocacy -- instead of women's health -- the primary mission of PP.

"Shout your abortion," lighting up the NY skyline in honor of abortion, dancing on the "fetus graveyard" . . . most people, even those nominally pro-choice, find such things abhorrent.

The rebuttal is always the same: anyone with reservations about abortion is an uneducated Christian attempting force fundamentalist theology on everyone, or a misogynist, or a racist, or whatever epithet comes to mind.

In the meantime, the pro-life movement has expanded its tent. The pro-life movement has made room for people who accept that there may be occasions where a pregnancy must be terminated but who are appalled at the image of abortion-as-birth-control.

There are organizations affiliated with the pro-life movement made up of atheists; members of every possible religion; and members of the LGBT community. In fact, the rally in Philadelphia in response to Brian Sims drew large numbers of gay men, some of whom drove from long distances because they wanted to demonstrate that Sims didn't represent their beliefs.

Back in the 70s, when PP was still attempting to be the good guys, they promoted the vision of a world in which every pregnancy was planned and celebrated -- a world in which terminating a pregnancy would only occur under the most serious and extreme conditions. In 45 years or so, we've now gotten to a place where women are sharing abortion stories as if they were accounts of weight loss and the mayor of NY thinks that abortion should be celebrated.

No wonder the folks in Alabama think it's time to push back.
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Post  Sun, May 19 2019, 4:37 pm
Why "play liberal"?
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