American Yeshivish

amother

Tangerine

Tue, May 21 2019, 7:52 am

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

Off topic, but something I’ve been wondering about, and that I can’t ask any CC women in real life... what percentage of CC kollel families are somewhat financially comfortable? As in, not living paycheck to paycheck, can afford to rent a 2 bedroom apartment, have money to save every month/year, etc. Many CC women make it sound like they are barely making ends meet, but that can’t be true for everyone? There must be some people who can afford all of their expenses and have money left over - how many? Is it a minority or perhaps even a silent majority?

silent majority

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:06 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Can the wife not say: "I'm sorry dear, but it's time to ask someone else?" Unless these shaylos truly aren't good. I can't remember the last time I went before day 14. Its often way past that bec. of my own periods/issues. Nothing to do with shaylos. Iput the onus on the couple here to find an alternative that works for them.
I'm super duper RW, but my reality is so not like what your friends has. DH would totally pasken shaylos on his own if he had shimush. He has extensive experience in other areas and does a ton of research where necessary so that we can find out own route where we feel comfortable.
We also have different a different rav for different areas in our lives. Not all rabbanim are experts/equal in all areas. That's a given. Our rav who does shaylos is a real expert in this area, but not in kashrus or hilchos Shabbos, for ex.
When I have a shayla, I use a rav who I know is very patient and a good listener bec. I like to know that I got the full question out, with all the details that may or may not be relevant. DH asks our shaylos to a different rav who is quick and sharp like himself.
Once I asked a rav and got a psak, I don't go shopping for a different psak (unless the rav tells me to), but asking different rabbanim for different areas is SMART; not wrong. Get your expert. Just like I don't ask my pediatrician about my gyn issues.

The wife is the same way. In fact, she may be a little more like that than her husband, since she didn't grow up so yeshivish but wants to be fully immersed in the yeshiva world. I might as well say it -- the posek is in Chaim Berlin, and he's known to be extremely machmir. He uses a loupe on bedikos, not to find a way to be matir them, but to make sure they're in no way, shape, or form assur. This comes straight from someone who did shimush in niddah. He knows the colors, but he follows his Rav. I'm not saying that getting to the mikvah on day 14-15 is so unusual, since I know it's not. But when it's happening because your Rav assurs bedikos until they're perfectly clear, that's a problem.

Do you mind pming me with the name and number of the Rav you ask? I've had such trouble finding someone who won't get frustrated with me.

I don't know -- a lot of yeshivish people I know ask their one Rav everything.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

Notsobusy

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:15 am

smileforamile wrote:

I don't know -- a lot of yeshivish people I know ask their one Rav everything.

We grew up what you would call yeshivish today, although in those days we didn't call it yeshivish. But my parents asked different rabbonim different shailos. Sometimes it depended on the type of shayla, sometimes it depended who was available. For major life decisions it ranged from Rav Segal to the Skvere Rebbe. For kashrus/kitchen issues, it was whoever was available. I don't know who they asked about nidah issues.

We didn't grow up feeling that we had one Rav, besides the above mentioned, my father had a sheychus to Rav Pam, to Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky, Rabbi Belsky and so many more. He wasn't close to them, but he went to them when needed.

Notsobusy

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:19 am

keym wrote:

I actually believe th a t most of my friends and neighbors fall into some of these categories. I'm talking Lakewood-yeshivish.
We all have some level of outside exposure, whether secular library books, filtered Internet, etc.
Nowadays, color is very in, and it's very rare to go to shul and see just black.
I live in a quite yeshivish neighborhood, and shaitels range from on the shoulder until several inches past.
Makeup is the norm.
Most of my friends did kollel between 2-10 years. But then, our husband's range from accountants, Dr's and pas, real estate and nursing home, blue color businesses, rebbes, teachers, and one or two still in kollel. (I'm married over 15 yrs).

And I've mentioned this before. But I have a hard time relating to my Israeli Chareidi family, and they don't relate to me. Because my boys play organized sports but don't watch professional games. We do secular studies. My kids read history or science books for fun, and we go to science museums.

Programs are iffier. I don't believe in setting up your life to be on programs. But I think it's fine to be on programs while hoping to get off. And this is one of my pet peeves. Most Lakewood kids are legally on Medicaid. Because that's how the state arranged it. (NY's Child Health Plus or something.) Practically that means a family of 7: making under 45k- Medicaid. Between 45k-108k, Medicaid with very low copays. Only after 108k is it private insurance. A family making 100k is doing quite reasonable even though the kids are legally on Medicaid.
But that's a whole nother topic.

ITA with your entire post. There are a lot of very, ultra yeshivish families in Lakewood with no exposure to anything, extreme tznius etc. But there are also a lot of people like me and you. Different levels of exposure, different levels of tznius. I might read more secular books, while my neighbor watches more movies. I might care more about skirt length, while she cares more about sheitel length.

Smileforamile - I think if you would visit Lakewood you would be pleasantly surprised. There are a lot of people here who are just like you and a lot of neighborhoods where you would fit in perfectly.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:24 am

smileforamile wrote:

At least the couple is on the same page Smile

And, yes, I know what you mean about not growing up that way. I grew up with one such a parent:(
The rav is Yiddish speaking, chassidish. You sure you want it? Maybe other imas have a more fitting rav for you?
And, I never ask deep shaylos; its more kitchen stuff, missed word in megillah, etc. I just felt with a diff. dayan that I didnt even finish my q and he already answered. He's probabably more quick witted ant that's fine for some ppl but I'm a bit OCD about the need to talk slowly and spell out my shayla with all the nuances. This one listens until I finish talking so I'm comfortable that he heard the entire shayla.
This expert thing is so clear to me. Were not shopping for leniencies: I'm shopping for a rav. I once called Rabbi Shmuel Neiman, author of 9-5 for a work related q (and he paskened more leniently for me than in the sefer, based on the circumstances). My usual dayan isn't in this field and wouldn't know where I'm coming from.
DH attends a hilchos shabbos shiur, and that's where he asks hilchos shabbos q's bec. he feels that he's the expert.
A more mashpia type we respect is where he'd discuss hashkafah shaylos.
Our 'bdika dayan' doesnt even take q's unrelated to TH as this is the only place he has shimush. I could go on and on with more ex, but you get the picture...Most ppl in my community are this way, but maybe bec.its a very large community and we have the resources to have many dayanim...

naturalmom5

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:32 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Re the bolded - I hear this a lot from the younger generation, and my husband and I discuss it often - we are both so puzzled by this. Where does this come from? How does it even make sense?

According to what you are saying, my husband and I are both NOT mainstream yeshivish hashkafa.... the weird thing is that we used to be - what happened to the world around us?

Logically, what you're saying doesn't even make sense, so how can it be mainstream yeshivish hashkafa?

As for secular literature - there is way more bad books than good books, but because you have so much to choose from, you automatically have a lot more good books - if I'm making sense because I'm tired. Also the frum books are very limited in their topics... I struggle with this as well.

We actually agree. Must be a total alignment of the planets

I always tell my husband you didn't run away from Lakewood
Lakewood ranch away from you

He is in a very bad predicament in that he's a BT without any family
But he learned in Brisk and was very close to R Yacob R Pam
He had a relationship with R Michel F and R Gustman and some big Gedolim stateside so it's very hard for him to relate to any of the kinderlach in Lakewood

Mommyg8

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:36 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

He stole my line, lol.

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:37 am

Notsobusy wrote:

Do you have some examples of neighborhoods? My DH's friend is really trying to convince him to move to Lakewood. They just bought a house there, and they're very our type. I became friendly with the friend's wife. I'm not out-and-out against moving to Lakewood... if I could get my kids into school there!

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:42 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

At least the couple is on the same page Smile

Yeah, you're right, not my type. The truth is that recently I have found a Chassidish Rav who so far has been fine for me. It's just that I have a certain idea in my mind that Chassidish dayanim wouldn't speak the same language as me since my background is so American. For example, I feel like a lot of traditional yeshivish or Chassidish rabbanim and dayanim wouldn't understand my absolute aversion to going on programs.

I guess people do sometimes have different rabbanim for TH and everything else, but I have lots of friends who will say "my husband ask the yeshiva posek/his Rosh Yeshiva" whenever a shaila comes up.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

keym

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:49 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

It's funny. I'm much younger than you and a bit younger than Mommyg8. 35-38
I'm raised more OOT yeshivish.
But I only see this mentality in the most extreme people I know, and those tend to have some sort of mental condition (OCD, or martyrism or something.)
Everyone else tries to stick to specific rabbanim for specific areas. However if something feels wrong, they will look to a new Rav clarifying that Rabbi X previously couldn't matir before day whatever, it's causing a lot of stress, are there options.
A couple who would not speak to a different rav imo suffers either from Religious OCD, or feels good being a martyr .

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:53 am

smileforamile wrote:

How about R' Dovid Cohen? AFAIK he is also very anti programs (BTW so is DH, even though he's chassidish from birth).My mom calls Rabbi Cohen, and he's very amenable. But he has set hours and can be difficult to get through to. There must be many more. Maybe start a new thread for this?
Or, for hashkafic topics maybe you can speak to a rebbetzin type? My mom calls one of her friends who is married to a litvish posek for advice bec. she likes where the woman is today in terms of hashkafah and it helps her gain clarity even though its not halachic rulings. I also once spoke to the wife of a Rosh Yeshiva bec. I knew that DH respected him and I wanted to explain my dilemma to someone who was in line with DH's hashkafa.

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:55 am

smileforamile wrote:

We've discussed this in pm before. It makes absolutely no sense. However, ask any Bais Yaakov high school or seminary teacher -- that's what they'll tell you. I can show you my seminary notes. I was livid.

I have a friend whose husband did shimush for paskening niddah shailos. He knows that the posek in his yeshiva is super machmir, but he uses him anyway. So his wife never gets to the mikvah before day 14-15 of her cycle. He knows that it's crazy, he knows that this is not the way it's meant to be with TH, but that's what yeshivish people do -- they follow their yeshiva's posek.

I hear what you're saying about secular literature. However, 43/100 is a much better ratio than 1/58, even though there are just as many bad books in both groups. Yes, there are much more topics allowed in secular literature, which makes them more interesting.

I'm sorry to be really blunt, but my DH would call someone like your friend's husband "krum, not frum." And DH is pretty RW yeshivish.

It disturbs me to hear that there is such a trend in the yeshiva world. It definitely was not my experience. I was taught as a Kallah that the goal is to be out of nidda ASAP, and that greater Rabbanim would go to great lengths to be matir a nidda sheila.

The man needs another Chosson shmuess.

(maybe because I've been thru IF, but you can't imagine the sheilos I've been told were okay, by some of Lakewood's biggest poskim. I've never heard any such concept of being super machmir being a good thing.)

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 9:58 am

Notsobusy wrote:

I grew up JPF, but same Rabbanim (my father went to Torah Vodath, so these were his Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva...). I definitely did not grow up with a one-Rav-whatever-he-says concept. It's more like, you ask them for advice, and often it is very on target.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:01 am

keym wrote:

In my community I do see it as a lot having to do with age. For a certain age bracket, they are used to 'using' only one rav. My parents started married life in a small community where there was one paid dayan/posek and he was the go to for all shaylos. That's what they are used to doing and that is what they continue doing to this very day.
By the time I got married, the community had 10x or 100x, and there are just more resources. Ex. Once upon a time, the kehilla didn't have a chosson rebbe in the kehilla. By now, they have many who are trained in this area so alot of ppl go to their chosson rebbe for TH. We have the option of using them just for TH. My parent's didn't have this. Same for other areas.

Chayalle

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:02 am

keym wrote:

This, precisely.

Keym, every time I read a post of yours I feel like, wow, is she inside my head?

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:10 am

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

You don’t sound like a weird mix at all! You sound like middle of the road yeshivish. Plenty of us like you. We call it Torah Im Derech Eretz. We live in Lkwd btw and plenty like us.

That's what I call it, too. I am currently trying to get through the Nineteen Letters from R' Hirsch, but it's hard when you're totally drained.

Where are there plenty like you? I am pretty much middle-of-the-road yeshivish, but not Lithuanian-style yeshivish. That's why I said American.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

keym

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:11 am

Chayalle wrote:

This, precisely.

Keym, every time I read a post of yours I feel like, wow, is she inside my head?

Flattered.

Though I really am curious nervously. What are they teaching in by high schools and seminary. I'm 20 years out. But when I read op's post, I can't relate. I mean sure we had a teacher or two who presented an extreme, unrealistic view. But not "wholesale".
Is this what is being taught now so vigorously?
Are the girls just not sophisticated enough to filter what some teachers say?